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View Diary: Should Animals Have the Right Not to be Tortured or Killed? (288 comments)

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  •  Yes...but... (2+ / 0-)
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    Jason Hackman, enhydra lutris

    This is all real natural selection and isn't even as abrupt as say a comet strike or something like that.

    I don't disagree with a good deal of what you say. But we aren't the first major disruption  to the evolutionary status quo by a long shot. The first clear example were the bacteria that produced our oxygen rich atmosphere...killing off a lot of the previous organisms. Now that may have been slow. But the meteor and comet strikes were much more abrupt changes than what we are causing.

    We are doing a lot of crap...and  that crap will affect us as well as millions of other species. But we should NEVER be so arrogant as to think we are outside of natural selection. No matter how you look at it, we are still within the range of natural selection. What we need to realize is that we are screwing with the very parameters that made our civilizations possible and THAT is what is going to slap us in the so many species before us soiled their evolutionary nests. Nothing new here. But if we want to survive in a big way, we need to realize our impact and mitigate it. THAT is what we should focus on.

    And honestly I am more concerned about the Bonobos, Mountain Gorillas, etc. that are windows to our own evolution and on the verge of extinction than I am dogs, cats, cos, rats, etc that are being mistreated, though I do prefer my meat coming from more humane and environmentally aware sources. But my time and money would be better spent reducing my own carbon footprint and helping species like Bomobos and Mountain Gorillas and Cross River Gorillas than helping dogs, cats and cows.

    Again, I do not mean to denigrate what you are saying. Just giving a more scientific and somewhat different view to what you are saying. What you are choosing is admirable, no question about it.

    FREEDOM ISN'T FREE: That's why we pay taxes. NYC's Progressive/Reform Blog

    by mole333 on Sun Jul 14, 2013 at 02:10:13 PM PDT

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    •  Really great comment (1+ / 0-)
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      I have nothing to add or retort. Thanks for taking the time to expand on your thoughts and contribute to the discussion.

      "If the machine of government is of such a nature that it requires you to be the agent of injustice to another, then, I say, break the law." - Henry David Thoreau

      by Jason Hackman on Sun Jul 14, 2013 at 03:04:41 PM PDT

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    •  Not eating meat (0+ / 0-)

      is reportedly a major way to reduce your carbon footprint  as well as your water footprint.

      Enjoy when you can, and endure when you must. - Goethe

      by Nurse Jeckell on Sun Jul 14, 2013 at 06:55:30 PM PDT

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      •  Yes...more or less (0+ / 0-)

        But not all meat is the same. I'd need to dig it up but chicken, for example, doesn't have that large a carbon or water footprint while beef has huge footprints (why isn't it feetprint?). Pork is in between. Cheese can be as bad as beef or as relatively "good" as chicken depending...soft cheeses better than hard cheeses in terms of carbon and water footprint. I seldom eat beef. Have cut back on chicken but still eat it. Same with pork.

        Can't find my most detailed article about all this, but here is a quote I take from a more superficial diary I wrote some time back:

        BEEF: 13-19 kilograms of carbon dioxide for every kg of beef. And I think the actual impact would be higher if you include the methane from waste products.

        CHEESE: 8.5 kg carbon emissions per kg hard cheese. Soft cheeses are better, some getting even as low as pork and chicken. I am guessing goat and sheep cheese might be better than cow cheese, but not sure.

        PORK: 3.25-4.8 kg carbon emission per kg meat (not sure this takes into account the methane release from the waste which is quite high and can actually be a major source of fuel for energy production!)

        CHICKEN: 3.5 kg carbon emission per kg meat

        EGGS: 2 kg carbon emissions per kg eggs

        YOGURT: 1.2 kg carbon emissions per kg of yogurt

        MILK: 900 g carbon emission per kg milk

        Vegan diets are, in general, the lowest in terms of carbon emissions. But just looking at meat, replacing beef with chicken can significantly cut your family's carbon foot print. And what strikes me is, coincidentally, the lower carbon emission meats tend also to be healthier and cheaper. So with chicken you cut the carbon footprint by about 75%, lower cholesterol, and at least where I shop save a fair amount of money. Leave out the cheese and bacon from your egg sandwich in the morning. Or better yet have a yogurt.

        Now I eat beef from time to time (LOVE a good burger), but I stopped cooking it at home. I do pork (from a local farm!) or chicken as pretty much the only meat I use. When I use meat I use less of it, more like a flavoring than a major ingredient. And honestly about half the dinners I make are more or less vegetarian.

        Let me add here that for ANY meat you get, please choose ones that are LABELED as being raised without antibiotics. This is another issue but one of almost equal importance.

        Another more fun source for calculating the carbon impact of a meal can be found here:

        Some lessons from that site: a chicken and cheese burrito has half the carbon footprint of a beef and cheese burrito. A burrito with rice, cheese and beans is even less.

        An individual cheese pizza is about half the carbon footprint of a cheeseburger.

        A chicken sandwich or turkey burger is even half of carbon footprint of the pizza.

        And a falafel even half the carbon footprint of a chicken sandwich.

        When ordering sushi salmon has a lower foot print than tuna which has a lower footprint than shrimp

        And again I think in terms of health many of the lower carbon emission foods are healthier and often cheaper.

        What you eat affects the climate, plain and simple. And you don't have to be vegan to significantly cut back your carbon footprint, though even a meat lover like me admits they generally are doing better in cutting back their carbon than I am.

        FREEDOM ISN'T FREE: That's why we pay taxes. NYC's Progressive/Reform Blog

        by mole333 on Mon Jul 15, 2013 at 06:35:57 AM PDT

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