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View Diary: Greenwald refutes reports on NSA/Snowden (631 comments)

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  •  In answer to your question. (7+ / 0-)

    Our government would best be served by forgetting about Snowden, unless he sets foot back in-country.

    We have some pretty serious damage control to do - and pursuing Snowden beyond what we have agreed to with the rest of the world, vis a vis international law, isn't particularly helpful.

    And our damage control will be getting tougher, as more material already in the hands of media is released.

    It ain't called paranoia - when they're really out to get you. 6 points.

    by Jaime Frontero on Sun Jul 14, 2013 at 08:25:05 AM PDT

    •  What does this mean? (0+ / 0-)
      pursuing Snowden beyond what we have agreed to with the rest of the world, vis a vis international law, isn't particularly helpful.
      •  It means that the laws of political... (9+ / 0-)

        ...asylum pertain.

        It ain't called paranoia - when they're really out to get you. 6 points.

        by Jaime Frontero on Sun Jul 14, 2013 at 08:59:23 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Thanks for clarifying (0+ / 0-)

          The US has done nothing to violate those

          indeed, the fact the USA has acted to try to stop Mr Snowden from reaching a nation offering asylum provides a strong clue that the USA understands Mr Snowden is out of reach once he arrives in such a nation.

          •  The act of... (7+ / 0-)

            ...reaching asylum is also within those laws.

            It ain't called paranoia - when they're really out to get you. 6 points.

            by Jaime Frontero on Sun Jul 14, 2013 at 09:33:18 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  That is complete nonsense (5+ / 0-)

              No nation is prevented from asking other countries for assistance in making an arrest simply because the fugitive has asked yet other nations for asylum. Asylum protects the fugitive while the fugitive is in that specific nations. Asylum is not a global get-out-of-every-jail-on-Earth card.

              I understand Mr Greenwald made that nonsense claim, but it remains nonsense. Pure, incorreect, nonsense.

              Note that Jonathan pollard is still in US jail even though Israel wants to offer him asylum. Too bad for Mr Pollard his get-out-of-jail card is nonsensical.

              •  Nope. It's correct, under customary internat'l law (4+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Don midwest, CroneWit, 3goldens, Dumbo

                Pollard was a spy for a foreign government, thus NOT covered by the UDHR. Political refugees are a completely different thing -- and interfering with asylum is generally interpreted to be part of that.

                "Government by organized money is just as dangerous as Government by organized mob." -- Franklin D. Roosevelt

                by Kombema on Sun Jul 14, 2013 at 11:11:37 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Mr Snowden is not wanted for political crimes (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  emelyn, sviscusi

                  He is wanted for statutory crime. And to-date, Mr Snowden does not have asylum. He has offers...offers means that status might occur in the future.

                  So no, it is utter nonsense to say that sonce a nation has offered asylum, the USA is no longer legally able to pursue its own international diplomacy.

                  •  He is a political refugee, avoiding persecution (3+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    CroneWit, 3goldens, Dumbo

                    for his political actions and beliefs, and fleeing from probable internationally unlawful abuse and violation of due process right in custody when and if detained by the American government. He is the definition of a refugee, and therefore is accorded the right to asylum according to international law.

                    You're welcome to object to the Universal Declaration, but it is binding to all in the United Nations system. Just because the U.S. gov't doesn't want Snowden to have such status, doesn't mean he's not eligible, or that the U.S. automatically has the right to interfere with his asylum efforts.

                    "Government by organized money is just as dangerous as Government by organized mob." -- Franklin D. Roosevelt

                    by Kombema on Sun Jul 14, 2013 at 12:13:56 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  No he is not (2+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      emelyn, sviscusi

                      He is wanted for breaking statutory law. He is not a legislator from teh opposition party.  He is wanted for violating the non-disclosure agreements he signed in his own hand.

                      The fact that virtually every nation on Earth, incuding Russia, recognize this should give people such as yourselves reason to pause in thought.

                      Now, an individual nation can decide for its own purposes that Mr Snowden is deserving of asylum. As each nation is sovereign, each nation has that power.

                      •  A "legislator"? The majority of political refugees (2+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        3goldens, ask

                        in countries around the world are average citizens who stand up to what they perceive is political oppression or injustice. This is what Snowden was doing. He broke laws, most certainly, but that doesn't change his status as a political refugee one bit. That's why they call it international law. Each nation doesn't get to decide on its own whether to follow it.

                        "Government by organized money is just as dangerous as Government by organized mob." -- Franklin D. Roosevelt

                        by Kombema on Sun Jul 14, 2013 at 12:38:28 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                  •  Political crimes are not statutory crimes? (0+ / 0-)

                    In the nation making the charges?  Think where you're going with that.

          •  Yes, it has. Customary internat'l law prohibits (5+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            CroneWit, Joieau, 3goldens, Dumbo, semiot

            interfering with a protected class asylum seeker's efforts toward refuge. This means it does not just apply to those who have arrived at said refuge.

            Article 14 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights states that "Everyone has the right to seek and to enjoy in other countries asylum from persecution." The United Nations 1951 Convention Relating to the Status of Refugees and the 1967 Protocol Relating to the Status of Refugees guides national legislation concerning political asylum. Under these agreements, a refugee (or for cases where repressing base means has been applied directly or environmentally to the defoulé refugee) is a person who is outside their own country's territory (or place of habitual residence if stateless) owing to fear of persecution on protected grounds. Protected grounds include race, nationality, religion, political opinions and membership and/or participation in any particular social group or social activities. Rendering true victims of persecution to their persecutor is a particularly odious violation of a principle called non-refoulement, part of the customary and trucial Law of Nations.

            "Government by organized money is just as dangerous as Government by organized mob." -- Franklin D. Roosevelt

            by Kombema on Sun Jul 14, 2013 at 11:08:28 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  And he is SEEKING It (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              sviscusi

              That does not mean once someone SEEKS a status, no one is allowed to advocate the other side of the coin.

              Mr Snowden is not a refugee either. He is a wanted man for breaking criminal law.

              •  Because he's being persecuted, his status is (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                3goldens, Dumbo

                automatic under international law. He does not need an official "ruling" on this, by definition, and falls under the protected class of political refugee. Look it up. If a political dissident from China, North Korea, Burma, Pinochet's Chile, etc., were seeking refuge, the customary international law gives them the benefit of the doubt.

                "Government by organized money is just as dangerous as Government by organized mob." -- Franklin D. Roosevelt

                by Kombema on Sun Jul 14, 2013 at 12:48:09 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

            •  Snowden is a political dissident. (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Kombema

              His motives in this are clear.

              Courage is contagious. - Daniel Ellsberg

              by semiot on Sun Jul 14, 2013 at 03:58:44 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

    •  I agree. It is what it is. Time for US to move on. (5+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      CroneWit, corvo, Kombema, gooderservice, Dumbo

      If, as I have suggested elsewhere, it is likely that the UN High Commissioner on Human Rights will declare him to be a refugee, it will no longer be legal under international law for nations to attempt to seize him.

      The Great Powers, of course, think they are above international law. But it would really, really put a crimp in US efforts to arrest him.

      So, better for the US to go to damage control and not dig itself in any deeper than it did with intercepting Morales' plane.
       

      •  That was embarrassing; that Morales thing. n/t (5+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        corvo, Kombema, gooderservice, 3goldens, Dumbo

        It ain't called paranoia - when they're really out to get you. 6 points.

        by Jaime Frontero on Sun Jul 14, 2013 at 11:02:03 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Any more embarrassing than the coup... (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Jaime Frontero, CroneWit, WheninRome

          ..against Zelaya? Or Chavez? Or Aristide?

          The US used to be able to do stuff without getting caught, like the coup against Mossadegh. There are some people who don't seem to understand that the world has changed, that their control of the media is not quite as absolute as they think. Look at the poll I placed as an update in this post. Only a minority think Snowden is a traitor. A majority believe that civil liberties are under threat.

          And this despite the silence/propaganda of our media, the absence of a liberal media, and so on.

          If we can't do stuff without getting caught, maybe we should stop doing stuff that will embarrass us?  

      •  UN High Commissioner. (0+ / 0-)

        I hope that happens.  But, oh, what a sad fate we have come to when we are humiliated by having our own country successfully put at the end of this charge.

        •  You're preaching to the choir, Dumbo (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Dumbo, WheninRome

          It would be a profound humiliation for the US to be placed in the same category as, say, Cuba. But our State Department, our whole government seems to have lost all sense of proportion.

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