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View Diary: Oakland Rising! All Out for Trayvon and against Police Violence. (75 comments)

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  •  AoT, what does breaking windows accomplish? (0+ / 0-)

    causing $20k to $50k of damage to businesses that have nothing to do with any of this anger?  what does that do besides alienating those that otherwise might support the reason for the protest.

    aren't you demonizing me as you accuse me of doing to those who break the law and cause property damage?

    even martin's family asked that not be done - yet they were ignored.  they should be the very ones listened to right now - they have the greatest reason for anger, don't you think?

    as for talking about people of color and the poor - i AM poor - devastatingly poor - and i grew up in the segregated south - so i am very VERY familiar with race and discrimination and injustice - and i've fought my entire life to change it.

    working WITH people for change is better than fighting AGAINST them - cooperation instead of flat out warfare will bring about justice and change much faster.

    when people are polarized, they refuse to listen to each other and nothing changes.

    now - a question for you - why DO people break windows?  this is an honest question to ask your interpretation and reason for supporting those actions.

    EdriesShop Is it kind? is it true? is it necessary?

    by edrie on Mon Jul 15, 2013 at 01:56:28 PM PDT

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    •  Window breaking doesn't accomplish (0+ / 0-)

      anything except to show how angry some people are about this. And I'm not advocating that people go out and break windows nor am I demonizing you. I'm saying that you're wrong and you're spreading media talking points because that's what you're doing.

      now - a question for you - why DO people break windows?
      Because they're outraged. Because they are sick and tired of being told that they just have to accept a racist, sexist, classist system. Because they are tired of being told to be passive and vote. And because the people who chide them about breaking windows aren't presenting real solutions either. The legacy of MLK and Gandhi has been hijacked to represent passivity and silence. You're presenting platitudes, not solutions.

      If debt were a moral issue then, lacking morals, corporations could never be in debt.

      by AoT on Mon Jul 15, 2013 at 02:16:13 PM PDT

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      •  ah, but mlk and gandhi never NEVER advocated (0+ / 0-)

        breaking windows - theirs (and my generation) were of peaceful sit-ins - not stone throwing.

        the best support occupy gained was at davis - then it got lost by the ones who threw stones and bottles and seed pods.

        those (like me) who chide those who throw windows DO offer solutions, but we're not being heard.

        we are saying organize - get candidates on the ballot - vote - work to get people in power who will write and change the laws.

        AND we are pointing out that third parties accomplish the exact opposite of what we truly desire.

        no one is saying accept a racist or sexist or classist system here - we have differing views on how to effectively change it.

        hell - MY generation did a helluva lot to make progress.  sadly, people got complacent and thought those changes were already fixed in this country.  now, after 30 years of republican obstruction and republican control for many of those years, we see that progress being not only eroded, but destroyed.

        if you want to really know how to effect change, go study the movement in the 60s - it was non-violent (on the part of the protesters) and it was effective.  

        what changed began with reagan, gingrich, apathy on the part of young voters (before your generation) and a concerted effort by republicans to long term re-shape the political gains we made in the sixties.

        more than i can type now - i really should have been out of here an hour ago... but i didn't want to leave your comments unanswered...  

        later, friend...

        EdriesShop Is it kind? is it true? is it necessary?

        by edrie on Mon Jul 15, 2013 at 02:54:09 PM PDT

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        •  I didn't say they did! (0+ / 0-)

          I said their legacy was being abused to silence and make people passive.

          You are saying that the ballot is the only way, which is flatly not true. And what changed was that people were racist and the GOP exploited that. The long term demographic changes and the belief systems that accompany them are the result of people working outside the system from the ground up without relying on elections. Elections are literally the last thing that a movement needs to think about. We need to organize and mobilize people to do useful things rather than just elect more of the same. You want people to keep doing the same thing when it has been shown to lead to no important changes.

          the best support occupy gained was at davis - then it got lost by the ones who threw stones and bottles and seed pods.
          Oakland had tens of thousands of people out marching on the day of the general strike. Possibly 100k. There were at least 35k out in New York. The police attacks were far more devastating than a few broken windows, far more. You don't want to blame the police for anything.

          If debt were a moral issue then, lacking morals, corporations could never be in debt.

          by AoT on Mon Jul 15, 2013 at 03:20:24 PM PDT

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          •  AoT, that's not true - that i don't hold certain (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            AoT

            police actions to be horribly wrong.

            but, as you said in another post, we should talk about this later.  

            when my hands hurt, my words are less and i don't explain well what i mean.

            and, today, my hands hurt, my heart hurts and i'm not in a clear enough place to really talk about this.

            my thoughts are in san francisco.

            peace...

            EdriesShop Is it kind? is it true? is it necessary?

            by edrie on Mon Jul 15, 2013 at 03:37:37 PM PDT

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            •  That's understandable (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              edrie

              And I'm so sorry to hear what happened. That sort of violence is just horrendous.

              If debt were a moral issue then, lacking morals, corporations could never be in debt.

              by AoT on Mon Jul 15, 2013 at 03:52:44 PM PDT

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