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View Diary: Contrary to WaPo, NSA Massive Domestic Spying Predates 2005 (149 comments)

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  •  I suggest you read the article (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Don midwest, CroneWit, aliasalias

    that the diary you admonished us to read was about.

    In particular:

    In his eight years at the helm of the country’s electronic surveillance agency, Alexander, 61, has quietly presided over a revolution in the government’s ability to scoop up information in the name of national security. And, as he did in Iraq, Alexander has pushed hard for everything he can get: tools, resources and the legal authority to collect and store vast quantities of raw information on American and foreign communications.
    (emphasis mine)

    On top of that, there's the context of what we have learned over the past decade about what the NSA is doing and wants to do - from the 2005 revelation of diversion of the internet backbone into NSA equipment to the construction of massive data storage facilities all over the country including currently in Utah, through the bulk collection of telephone metadata on the vast majority of Americans which was revealed by Snowden.  The predisposition is clear - they want to suck up and store everything they can, regardless of source and regardless of relevance to any present-day threat.

    “What’s the use of having developed a science well enough to make predictions if, in the end, all we’re willing to do is stand around and wait for them to come true?” - Sherwood Rowland

    by jrooth on Mon Jul 15, 2013 at 11:15:11 AM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  That's even weaker. (0+ / 0-)

      The bulk collection of metadata does not show a "predisposition to suck up and store everything they can".  

      In reality, all you have is the same old assumptions of evil, now disguised with the word "predisposition" to do evil.  I suspect it's because nobody can figure out what's so bad about collecting metadata, so you have to figure out how to smear people as being boundlessly evil in intent.

      "We're now in one of those periods when the reality of intense pressure on the middle class diverges from long-held assumptions of how the American bargain should work" --James Fallows

      by Inland on Mon Jul 15, 2013 at 11:27:25 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  It's one piece of a larger puzzle. (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        CroneWit, aliasalias

        Why do you ignore the other things I listed?

        I get it - you think the government can do no evil and nothing they do can ever be turned to evil.  I disagree.

        (See: I can play this fantasy projection game too.)

        And plenty has been written about the power in collecting metadata.  There's a whole field of intelligence called "traffic analysis" which has existed for a century or so which you might want to educate yourself about before you cavalierly dismiss the value of a comprehensive database of metadata spanning both population and time.

        “What’s the use of having developed a science well enough to make predictions if, in the end, all we’re willing to do is stand around and wait for them to come true?” - Sherwood Rowland

        by jrooth on Mon Jul 15, 2013 at 11:38:37 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I think another question is... (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          jrooth, CroneWit

          does it work? They say it has stopped terrorist attacks but wont provide examples. The number of attacks prevented also changes like they are making it up on the fly. It's kinda like the attacks the FBI supposedly stopped the last 12 years. But when you look at the actual cases, the vast majority were FBI setups in the first place. You know, creating a crime to stop the crime.

          Also, Alexanders claims of attacks decreasing in Iraq because of his Iraqi TIA is dubious at best. I'm sure there were more factors at work such as a change in Military policy of clearing and holding, changes in political structure of who has power in Iraq, plain ole running low of munitions, The Surge, etc... Maybe his Iraqi TIA did help, maybe it didn't. But trying to claim it did without providing other factors is pure guess work and sloppy intelligence.

        •  What puzzle? (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Tony Situ

          I can't wait to hear what you have to say about soldiers who tried to kill someone in Iraq.  Predispositions, anyone?

          I get it - you think the government can do no evil and nothing they do can ever be turned to evil.  I disagree.
          Sure it can.  The possibility of not being turned to evil exists too, although this crap about "predispositions" rules it out.  

          I've watched for weeks while people took the possibility of something occurring, turned it into the certainty of something occurring, and then scared themselves with sci fi movies and a dystopian future that they assumed was the result.   You'd think that being reminded of Trayvon Martin's killing would make them realize that there's no need to invent problems.  But no.

          "We're now in one of those periods when the reality of intense pressure on the middle class diverges from long-held assumptions of how the American bargain should work" --James Fallows

          by Inland on Mon Jul 15, 2013 at 12:38:19 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Still playing your fantasy projection game, I see. (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            CroneWit

            Even as you blockquote my comment, oblivious to its point even though I spelled it out for you in the very next sentence.

            I have been regularly posting comments on this topic here for as long as I've been a member - IOW over eight years.  Nothing I have ever said remotely fits your cartoon caricature.  You can choose to believe whatever nonsense you wish to imagine about what I think, but it's a shame you sink to that as on occasion we've had what I thought were fruitful exchanges - and that ain't possible when you're in full-blown blind derision mode.

            Have a good day.

            “What’s the use of having developed a science well enough to make predictions if, in the end, all we’re willing to do is stand around and wait for them to come true?” - Sherwood Rowland

            by jrooth on Mon Jul 15, 2013 at 01:11:19 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Even as I blockquote your strawman, (0+ / 0-)

              you object to being made into a cartoon character?

              Irony anyone?

              Oh, by the way, "I get it" is the internet's new way of saying "I'm going to start working with straw":

              I get it - you think the government can do no evil and nothing they do can ever be turned to evil.  I disagree.
              And my outrageous response is to say that the possibility of not doing evil exists, too.  How outrageous.

              "We're now in one of those periods when the reality of intense pressure on the middle class diverges from long-held assumptions of how the American bargain should work" --James Fallows

              by Inland on Mon Jul 15, 2013 at 01:18:50 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Seriously ... what did you think (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                CroneWit
                (See: I can play this fantasy projection game too.)
                meant?  Are so blinded by your desire to argue that you can't comprehend that it was a deliberate, obvious, explicitly identified "straw man" written to illustrate the straw-men you were bombarding me with?

                I thought you more intelligent than that.

                Again, have a good day.

                “What’s the use of having developed a science well enough to make predictions if, in the end, all we’re willing to do is stand around and wait for them to come true?” - Sherwood Rowland

                by jrooth on Mon Jul 15, 2013 at 01:26:20 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  The fantasy projection started at "predisposition" (0+ / 0-)

                  You aren't the person being treated unfairly here.  But whatever.

                  "We're now in one of those periods when the reality of intense pressure on the middle class diverges from long-held assumptions of how the American bargain should work" --James Fallows

                  by Inland on Mon Jul 15, 2013 at 01:36:22 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

      •  Alexander has collected "metadata" in the form (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        CroneWit

        of iris scans of millions of Iraqis and Afghans. The army is now in the process of doing the same for base access control of military and civilians in the USA.

        people as being boundlessly evil in intent
        The road to hell is paved with good intentions. With the new technologies in surveillance and biometrics it is only a mater of time before everyone will be tagged and watched - all done in the name of security.

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