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View Diary: 5 Myths about Stand Your Ground Debunked (79 comments)

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  •  My quibble with that is..... (6+ / 0-)

    that if such was codified into law (making it illegal to follow/observe people), you just made all community watch orgs illegal.  

    Since the police are stretched thin in the best of times, and the courts have consistently upheld that they have no duty to protect anyone not in their immediate custody, we have to be able to take pro-active action in our own communities.  Your analysis would render that impossible.

    Your hate-mail will be graded.

    by PavePusher on Thu Jul 18, 2013 at 07:18:27 AM PDT

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    •  Oh, I don't want to codify it... (5+ / 0-)

      ...I don't see how one could.
      I've just made it my goal to keep all my expensive 10mm hollow point carry ammo (it's about $1.50 pe round) to myself. I've been in situations where my lawyer assured me afterward that I would have been legally justified to use deadly force... and I am personally proud to have gotten out of all of them without drawing or even displaying my weapon.

      Zimmerman made considerable effort to create and prolong a confrontation... it wasn't even a confrontation at all until he decided to follow the kid because he "looked suspicious." My own choice would have been the opposite.
      If that was my kid he had profiled, followed, fucked with and shot dead... let's just say the ensuing months would have been very different, for both myself and Mr. Zimmerman's surviving kin.

      Things are more like they are now than they've ever been before...

      by Tom Seaview on Thu Jul 18, 2013 at 07:25:07 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Thanks for Sharing Your Perspective (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Tom Seaview

        I appreciate your personal choice to exercise restraint with guns and also your view of Zimmerman as being in the wrong. The problem with the logic, though, seems to be that you are making this equation someone being in the wrong + some dying = murder. Thankfully for our justice system it's not that simple, right? Murder is a very specifically defined offense that involves more than being wrong and causing someone else's death. There are other ways besides a murder conviction that Zimmerman can be held accountable for his wrong actions, such as a wrongful death lawsuit, possible federal civil rights charges (although I doubt it), and public opprobrium, not to mention the personal torment of knowing that your wrong decision led to the death of an innocent teenager and the lifelong grieving of his family. In my opinion, convicting him of murder would be an example of two wrongs not making a right.

        •  Not exactly (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:

          Here's why I believe that what Zimmerman did was murder, and it's the same reason that the explosion in concealed carry permits has not significantly -- or measurably -- increased crime:
          Legally armed civilians actively avoid situations where they might end up shooting people.
          Sure, there are exceptions, but they are few and far between. A person who wants to shoot people, after all, doesn't need a carry permit to do so... and such a person usually won't pass even the most cursory background check.
          The act of strapping on a firearm, for pretty much every other permit holder I know, reminds us of what is at stake. Even the very name of my Delaware permit to "Carry a Concealed Deadly Weapon" (CCDW) is a reminder of what might happen if I fuck up. "Fucking up" would include starting a fight with someone, but it could also mean walking through the wrong neighborhood in the dark or casually cutting someone off on the road.

          And then we have George Zimmerman.
          Before he got out of his car, he knew he was armed. He knew that confronting a stranger in the dark might result in violence, and he knew that, absent his gun, he just might get his ass handed to him.
          But he did it anyway.
          There's only one likely reason, in my humble (and legally useless) opinion: he wanted to shoot someone. He knew the SYG laws, and understood that it would be his word against nobody's. He chose the time, place and circumstances perfectly. He didn't know who Trayvon Martin was, but he was happy to dehumanize him.

          I don't know how happy he is now to have shot him, but I don't care: the confrontation, and the death, resulted from his deliberate choices. He created a situation that might "force" him to kill, and then he killed. That's murder.

          Things are more like they are now than they've ever been before...

          by Tom Seaview on Thu Jul 18, 2013 at 06:21:53 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  All I can say is.... (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:

            .....fortunately the law agrees with me and not you. But, I do appreciate your points that people should be responsible with guns and avoid using them whenever possible. However, when they use their weapons to stand up to an attacker, even when they could have run away, they should not be locked up for the rest of their lives, in my opinion.

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