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View Diary: George Zimmerman, Off The Hook (186 comments)

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  •  Living in a fact free zone much? (1+ / 0-)
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    happy camper

    Zimmerman could have retreated?  Absolute nonsense. He was on his back with TM on top of him.  The evidence supports that and it has nothing to do with SYG.

    The law says he had to be in reasonable fear of serious bodily injury or death.  It has said that or something similar from the days of common law.  Reasonable means that not only did GZ have to feel that fear but a reasonable person in those circumstances would have felt the same fear.  That's what the jury found and the evidence supported that.  


    •  The scope of your facts (2+ / 0-)
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      Batya the Toon, Laconic Lib

      Mind the fact that Zimmerman pursued Martin, who posed no threat initially.  Why should there have been a confrontation of any kind here?  The answer to the question of reasonableness is subject to the scope of considerations here.

      •  That is not relevant to the law (1+ / 0-)
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        TM escalated the force to deadly force, not GZ.  Anything prior to that point is irrelevant.  Both were in a place they had a right to be, doing what they had a right to do.  TM initiated the violence.  Even if you don't believe that, you cannot reasonably believe that the prosecution disproved that TM initiated the violence beyond a reasonable doubt.

        •  You haven't shown that (3+ / 0-)

          Why would prior actions be irrelevant?  It is very plausible to argue that Zimmerman was an aggressor who approached an innocent party out of the blue in a threatening manner.  If Martin were alive to prosecute, might he have claimed that he was standing his ground?

          •  No, because there was no deadly force from GZ (0+ / 0-)

            There is absolutely no indication of deadly force from GZ.  You can make something up which has no basis in evidence, like GZ drew his gun and approached TM, but there is absolutely no evidence to support this.  Unless there was deadly force used or threatened, then these events have no relevance to the self defense claim.  You can argue that the force TM used did not put GZ in reasonable fear of death or serious bodily injury, that's a fair argument, but the jury found he did.  

            If we speculate we can speculate anything, but the facts bring us to a very limited decision tree.  Was GZ in reasonable fear of serious bodily injury or death at the time he fired or not?  That's it.

            •  Z was in fear of serious injury if you believe him (1+ / 0-)
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              and his story(s) about where his gun was change form inside his beltand pants on his ass, to on his hip so Trayvon can see it, grab for it with one of 3 or 4 arms.

              ZHole is lying killer. Too bad Florida self defense laws make it easy for a lying killer to walk.

            •  Unfortunately, (0+ / 0-)

              Unfortunately, there is only one person left alive from the encounter to testify.  The assailant thereby gains the upper hand in inquiries subsequent to the encounter.  

              GZ displaying an unconcealed weapon is a complication.  To me, it signifies the owner's willingness to use deadly force.  In certain cultural contexts, not necessarily shared by both persons involved (in any given encounter), it indicates more than the willingness, but the intent to use.  

              There is a degree of pretense involved here in the legally-sanctioned display and use of firearms in everyday life, and the belief that this, in all but a very few circumstances, is somehow not a pathological situation, frought with potential for misperception of intent and wrongful acts of violence.  

              Giving legal sanction to an inherently pathological encounter between an armed person and unarmed person -- especially in circumstances where the unarmed person is behaving innocently up until that moment -- is one of the great misbegotten consequences of the political climate we live in.

    •  Really? only one witness put Martin on top in the (1+ / 0-)
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      struggle. 2 saw z on top and 2 witnesses said they both were standing when the shot was fired.

      And the paid expert forensic witness was full of self serving shit.

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