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View Diary: George Zimmerman, Off The Hook (186 comments)

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  •  Worse choice than chasing kids with a loaded gun? (2+ / 0-)
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    a2nite, Happy Days
    •  was GZ waving it around? (0+ / 0-)

      it's legal to carry a gun.

      The criminal issue was who started the fight.

      Yeah, GZ made a bad choice getting out of his truck.
      TM made a bad choice screwing around instead of
      unassing the situation.

      Someone made a very bad choice initiating the assault.

      •  I don't know what either one of them were doing (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Happy Days

        before the witnesses began to observe them. I don't know what Trayvon or zHole were doing during the 4 minutes when time stood still.

        I do know that 17 yr old Trayvon went to a store and was walking home with ice tea and Skittles. I know an armed aggressive 28 yr old adult followed this boy in a car and on foot while he was carrying a pistol without a safety and loaded with hollow point bullets.

        They met. They argued. One witness says Trayvon was on top in the struggle that broke out. Two say z was on top. Two witnesses say they were both standing when the shot was fired.

        I know zHole should not have been 'watching' with a weapon of any kind, let alone a loaded gun. I know he was not supposed to follow anyone when he 'watches'. I know z was supposed to identify himself as a 'watcher' to anyone he met  and offer assistance. I know z did not identify as a 'watch' by his own admission. The only material statement he made about that night that is not in his favor.

        I know z gave conflicting statements about where he carried his gun and its location shifted to make it possible for Martin to see it and grab for it. And that that gun and holster had no DNA from Martin on it.

        I know z made other statements that were either false or preposterous. And did so on video or before investigators.

        I know, as someone who was in numerous fights as a young gang member, that nothing zHole says about the fight he claims to have been in, has the slightest note of authenticity. None.

        I know that Martin had no blood or DNA from z on his hands. Even though zHole says Trayvon punched him 25 or 30 times, and claims Martin tried to smother him with his hand over his blood smeared face and  banged his head on concrete numerous times.

        I know that despite z's claims of this horrific beating, his wounds were superficial both to his face and back of his head.

        I know Trayvon's body was found face down with the top of his head more than 8' from the edge of the sidewalk and his feet behind him even though he would have been leaning over the sidewalk to bang zHole's head on it.

        I know no DNA from z was found on this on this weaponized sidewalk.

        I know if I were on zHole's jury I would have pressed and pressed and pressed to convict this lying reckless armed and dangerous asshole of manslaughter.

        In my opinion z was and is a danger to his fellow citizens

        •  I know a bit about Forensic path (0+ / 0-)

          The Crime scene investigation was just embarassing.
          The ME Report was even worse.

          However, if the police are operating with limited resources and not expecting this to be a major case, that's what you get.

          Absence of DNA?  The scene wasn't well preserved and
          they didn't do much evidence collection at the scene.

          It's hard to draw conclusions because the scene was tampered with by street cops going all over it.

          And if you want to hold some minor inconsistencies
          in as dispositive, you also have to take the primary
          police investigators that they found GZ convincing and

          Every case has hair on it, i've never seen one without it.

          In order for you to make a lot of your accusations stick, they need to be tied to a timeline.

                Did GZ decide to start beating himself up after shooting TM?

          •  Isn't the only accusation, and it is more of an (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Happy Days

            observation, that I made about z's description of the 'fight' as being not believable. The amount of damage he claims to have received would have had his face and shaved head looking like ground beef, if not that night than certainly by the next day.

            And I never thought these Sanford cops deserved credit for the handling of any aspect of this case. And it is my unlearned opinion that a team of 1st yr law students could have mounted a more spirited prosecution.

            Why would the location of Trayvon's body tie into a timeline? It was either near the sidewalk that z claims his head was being pounded into, or nearly 10' away no matter what fucking time it is. And if z had the strength to move Trayvon and the fight 10' while on his back taking a world class pounding, why couldn't he push Martin off and run away screaming in terror? He says he was screaming in terror.

            Is the location of Trayvon's body in relation to the weaponized sidewalk a minor point?

            But z was not convicted, which you seem to think was the only outcome possible based on the evidence. What's your beef? And I believe ZHole to be guilty no matter what  conclusion a jury came to? A jury in Florida mind you.

             I think, at the least, zHole got away with manslaughter. You don't?

            And I think that his carrying, in public places, of a hollow point loaded safetyless pistol, round in the chamber, to be an open window into his shit smeared ugly soul. And I don't give a fuck if it's legal. It's reckless and shows a disregard for innocent people s safety.

            Fuck George Zimmerman and the truck he road into our lives in.

            •  the only pictures i can find (0+ / 0-)

               pic 37, 39

              looks like TMs body is a wingspan away from the sidewalk.

              That's close enough to be consistent with his story.

              And the reason i ask about a timeline is you don't believe
              GZ took any blows to the head from TM. So how did it happen? Did GZ roll over on the sidewalk and crack his own head on the pavement after the shooting? Did GZ then
              punch himself?


              is it like that bit in Fight Club where he beats himself up?
              How much time did he have to do that before the first neighbor comes outside?

              •  I don't know how zHole came by his injuries. But (0+ / 0-)

                what is a wingspan in feet and inches? The information I find on line puts the top of Trayvon's head 8' from the sidewalk. A photograph I saw in a search today clearly shows his head further form the sidewalk than the police officers are tall, or about 8'feet. zHole left the body where it fell, or crumpled over him. The 1st officer on the scene rolled it over, not backward, over.

                So if z is getting his head pounded thru the sidewalk why isn't the body of the kid doing the pounding anywhere near it? z says Martin's legs are nearly on his shoulders. So how did Trayvon's body end up face down 8' away if he was shot while kneeling on his shooters body while punching his head, smothering him, and the worst, pounding his head on the sidewalk. The reason zHole had to shoot him to save his life.

                The location of Trayvon's body is not consistent with z's story at all. z's story requires Martin to have 3 arms, for punching, smothering, pounding, and grabbing guns. Now those 3 arms are 8' long.

                 How z got those scratches and bruises I do not know. Slipped on the sidewalk and banged his shaved head? Trayvon did catch z with a lucky punch if z's right arm was dropped to pull his gun? I don't know. zHole knows.

                I do think it odd that the only guy with a gun claims the guy without one tried to pull that lone gun on the guy who actually had it. z can't go grocery shopping without a round in the chamber, but he is so slow on the draw in the life or death struggle he was always preparing for?  

                I don't believe any of z's story(s) about that night and how Trayvon got dead. Do you?

              •  Looked at your picture show. Didn't see anything (0+ / 0-)

                new. The spoil from the encounter is on the sidewalk, than next to it, with phone, flashlite, etc further from the sidewalk and the body furthest of all.

                Tells me the encounter starts on the sidewalk and ends with a dead victim 8' away.

                Trayvon was probably standing when he was shot dead as was zHole when he shot him. Just as two witnesses have testified.

                patbahn, the more you make me think about z's statements and the evidence about this shooting, the more I am convinced z is a dangerous liar who got away with, at the least, manslaughter.

                You haven't answered my question about whether you believe him innocent or guilty. Or if you think the evidence is just to thin to convict him.

                •  GZs story is consistent with the facts. (0+ / 0-)

                  his flashlight and keys are next to the sidewalk.

                  the body isn't grossly away from the sidewalk.

                  Say the fight starts 2-3 feet away from the sidewalk.

                  GZ gets banged against the sidewalk.

                  TM Gets shot.  GZ pushes his body over off of him
                  then rolls him over to search him.

                  that's how the body ends up 6 feet away from the sidewalk.

                  I don't know what happened, i wasn't there, but,
                  if you want to lock someone up, you want a
                  story that holds together.

                  The state never had that.

                  •  No, zHoles story is consistent with zHole's story. (0+ / 0-)

                    And his story is contrived to fit, as closely as possible, the debris left littering the scene of the crime.

                    Eye witnesses seem to have seen the encounter in different stages. One participant on top and then the other, and 2 witnesses saw z and Trayvon standing when the shot is fired.

                    I was Level II law enforcement and a lead horse packer for the USFS. And I have assisted mounted sheriffs pack a body out of the forest. Dead bodies don't move very easily until you secure the arms and legs and get something stiff under the back. Medicos, cops and other 1st responders know how to flip an unconscious body. If you have ever had advanced 1st aid you know this move. The body almost always remains in place after the flip. It would be easier to slide out from under a dead body that push it off you. It is like moving a long bag with sand and water in it. The bones in a dead body only help you move limb or torso until you reach the next joint.

                    z says he searched the body where it ended up after he got
                     out from under it. He says he spread out the arms. But the arms were under the body when the 1st cop got there. Trayvon's wound would have rendered him instantly motionless, and hopefully unconscious.  Who moved those arms back before a cop trying to revive him rolled Trayvon over?

                    Lifeless bodies don't move nearly 6' or more by being rolled over once or even twice.

                    And I think z's story is so full of shit, lies, and do overs, that his claim of self defense should have been disbelieved by cops, prosecutors, judge, and jury.

                    Zimmerman belongs in jail.

                    •  hair (0+ / 0-)

                      you sound like one of the whackos who used to
                      pick apart the vince foster suicide.

                      GZ said this, when the cop recorded that.

                      I expect chunks of GZs testimony to be hairy,
                      but it should fit reasonably.

                      if it's hard to move a body, how did TMs body end up face down? Did GZ get the body face down? Did he flip TM's body over or did he hold him face down while shooting him in the chest? Or did he use some sort of Quantum Chromodynamic bullet that flew backwards through TM?

                      Every case has hair, tiny uncertainties or inconsistencies.

                      doesn't mean conspiracy, just hair.

                      •  Zimmerman never claims he turned the body over. (0+ / 0-)

                        He says he got on top of it because he wasn't sure Martin was dead and spread out Martin's arms. See even in death Trayvon is a fearsome thing. Face to face when he killed him and the body is face down in the grass until a cop turns it over.

                        If as I now believe, thanks to you, that they were both standing when Trayvon was killed, that would put Martin even further from the weaponized sidewalk. He's knees give up and the body falls forward head first toward the sidewalk.

                        8' feet, or your 6', is a very long hair from the side walk to the top of Trayvon's head.

                        Conspiracy... hair? How about just the lie of a reckless armed asshole trying to save himself from the justice he deserves?

                        He got away with it. Can't you be happy?

                        •  There is no joy in this event. (0+ / 0-)

                          One man is dead, one's life is changed forever.
                          Neither made good choices.

                          •  One 'bad' choice was a 17yr old with tea and (0+ / 0-)

                            candy walking home and the other 'bad' choice was a grown man with a hollow point loaded hand gun chasing after an innocent kid in the dark and killing him.

                            Trayvon Martin is not responsible for his death. He was 17 and walking from a store to his home to finish watching a game with his Dad.

                            A 28 yr old aggressive buttinski, armed and dangerous, turned that walk from store to home into a death sentence.The armed 28 yr old chased Martin in car and on foot, met up with the 17 yr old boy walking home and ended up shooting him dead.

                                                                 FOR NOTHING!

                            That poor dead kid is not guilty of his death. Goddammit! The armed, reckless bad judgement machine who shot him in the heart with a hollow point is.

                          •  he wasn't chased by a car (0+ / 0-)

                            the case is bad enough without hysterics.

                            TM was on foot and and GZ was following in his truck.

                            You ace like it's some bad B movie.

                            For the distance involved, the timeline doesn't have anyone running very far or very fast.

                            Pity, if TM had kept on hustling, he'd have left GZ with a coronary on the dogwalk.

                            Pity that TM didn't call his father and ask for some help.

                            Pity he didn't call 911.

                            The issue is who threw the first punch, and, that's never going to be known.

                          •  How are my hysterics going to effect this 'case'? (0+ / 0-)

                            And the real pity is that a neighborhood watch with a Javert complex couldn't take his gun grocery shopping as intended, instead of hunting kids in his neighbors' back yards with it.

                            Why is the 17 yr old kid supposed to save himself and zimmerman from zHoles armed and reckless bad judgement? Why is Trayvon responsible for keeping z from slaughtering him? Shouldn't the 28 yr old who considers himself responsible for the safety of his neighborhood, and this while carrying a loaded pistol, be the one who prevents an innocent walk home from turning into a shooting death? He's 28, he's the 'watch', he's got a gun, he knows the cops are coming. Why does he get a pass for all his bad judgements that result in a fight and a fatal shooting?

                            Don't you have any suggestions for zHole too? Suggestions that might have kept him from creating an incident that escalates into the shooting death of an unarmed kid walking home?

                            And zhole getting out of his truck is the action that leads to Trayvon's death, not the first punch. A punch the shooter would have every reason in the world to lie about.


                          •  if you want to look for the starting cause (0+ / 0-)

                            it could be GZ going shopping.

                            it could be TM getting kicked out of school.

                            The law correctly sets the standard at who started the fight.

                            because it's legal for TM to be walking around the complex
                            and it's legal for GZ to follow him.

                            you can call him names, but, his conduct was inside the bounds of the criminal law.

                            if TM thought the situation was scary enough to run, why
                            didn't he call 911 too? Why didn't he call his dad? Why
                            didn't he keep running, it was one block to safety?

                          •  zHole knows he shouldn't 'watch' with a gun. He (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:

                            knows he's not supposed to follow anyone, He knows he is supposed to identify himself to anyone he does come into contact with. Violating these guidelines leads directly to the confrontation that causes the death of Trayvon on the night he is shot.

                            Trayvon's suspension has nothing to do with that night. He seems to be unsure if he is danger or not. He's a 17 yr old minor. He has no idea that he is in a life or death situation.

                            zHole is a 28 yr old adult. He has guidelines to follow. He doesn't follow them. Because of this a fight starts and a minor is killed by an armed 'watch' why outside the scope of his duties.

                            The judge excluded from the instructions on manslaughter  charges the section that states you cannot follow someone until you provoke a response and then claim self defense if a death occurs. But she did describe SYG to the jury even tho the defense did not claim SYG.

                            Zimmerman's reckless armed zeal killed Trayvon. The lax police work, county & states attorneys, the judge, and jury, all let Trayvon down after his needless pointless death.

                            Tryvon is not in any way responsible for his own death. Black while walking is not a crime.

                            And zHole deserves a lot worse than being called names.

                          •  GZ was outside the neighborhood watch guidelines (0+ / 0-)

                            but he wasn't outside the law.

                          •  Not as the laws & justice system were employed in (0+ / 0-)

                            this shooting I would agree.

                            Now a teenager is needlessly dead and a reckless aggressive common sense challenged buttinski is loose among with a notch on his safetyless hollow point loaded pistol.

                            Is he walking his pit bull, Oso, in a neighborhood near you?

                          •  Did GZ deserve to die? (0+ / 0-)

                            Lets say GZ didn't have a pistol but did the same things.

                            Would you defend TM for kicking his ass, and putting him
                            in the hospital?

                          •  Yes. zHole could have identified himself as watch, (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Quicklund, misterwade

                            told Martin the cpos were on the way, kept his distance and simply retreated, knowing the police would take charge of z's reported non-incedent.

                            But why hospital? It has been well established that zHoles injuries were superficial. No medico maintains he needed more than minor 1st aid and z refuses going to the ER. At the time he killed Martin his injuries, however he got them, didn't even require bandaids.

                            If Trayvon had survived that night this may all have boiled down to dueling SYG defenses.

                            z is a nosey prick and a good ass kicking would do him a world of good.

                          •  He had one (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Grabber by the Heel, misterwade

                            as it happens. A creepy ass cracker got away with murder.

                            You know it, I know it.

                          •  That way they'd both be alive to testify, eh? (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Grabber by the Heel

                            So I would much rather have had that scenario play out, that much I can say with certainty.

                            You know what? I accept the jury's decision in the sense that reasonable doubt applies, and I have personally sat in a jury room in bitter argument over that very concept.

                            But I do not feel compelled to spend my free time defending Mr Zimmerman's acts as being justified beyond all reasonable doubt.

                            To be honest, watching this compulsion on display always leaves me with reasonable doubt as to the genuine altruistic nature of the highly motivated Zimmerman defender

                          •  To be clearer, nobody needed to die or would have, (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:

                            but for zHoles reckless and lethal choices.

                            And if you wrote your post asking me if zHole deserved to die and then thru in does he deserve an ass beating to trick me into a 'death to zHole' answer...fuck you.

                          •  you are so flipping wrong (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Grabber by the Heel

                            GZ chased him down for no reason, and failed to comply with cops direction to stop.  So the law does not correctly set the standard at who started the fight if the law says the kid started it, because he was chased and harassed by the murderer. You must be both morally and intellectually impaired to suggest such obvious bullshit.  Shame on you! Asshole.

                            Power to the Peaceful!

                            by misterwade on Sun Jul 21, 2013 at 03:46:55 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

          •  Regarding a timeline: (0+ / 0-)

            The "4 minutes" is a complete red herring and distraction created by O'Mara and unfortunately left untouched by the hapless prosecution.

            O'Mara starts his "4 minutes" mid-way through the Zimmerman call, from the time Zimm says, "He's running." The end of the 4 minutes is when the scuffle began.

            He posits that "we don't know what Trayvon was doing during that time." We know that for the first two minutes of that time George was still on the phone with the dispatcher.

            And we do know what Trayvon was doing during the entire 4 minutes--he was on the phone with Rachel Jeantel. His call with her ended two minutes later than the end of Zimm's call with the dispatcher, and, in fact, coincides with the start of the altercation.

            Trayvon thought he had lost the creepy guy when he ran--he was away from the road now, and the guy was in a car--so he then walked to the path to continue on his way home. He thought he had lost Zimm and didn't feel like running any more. He told Rachel he was tired and didn't want to run more. Listen to the testimony. This is what she said.

            There was the confrontation on the path, overheard in part by Jeantel. The Jeantel call disconnected at 7:15:44 and the Lauer call to police connected 27 seconds later, at 7:16:11. Lauer called due to the loud yelling she heard outside her town home.

            Other "ear witnesses" heard yelling, too. That's what got their attention. So there was no "jumping/ambushing" anyone.

            There were words, then for 40 seconds a "fight" of sorts, then the fatal shot. Just a minute later the police arrived on the scene. They would have broken up a simple fight with no serious injuries had Zimm not pulled his gun.

            Fact: Zimm's head was nowhere near the sidewalk when he shot. So his head was not being pounded on cement when he shot. He was clearly in no mortal danger when he shot. He knew police were on their way and should have known he had nothing to fear.

            To me, one of the most important unaddressed questions in the trial is "what was Zimmerman doing during the fight?" There is no indication that he threw a single punch at Trayvon. Why is that? What was he doing with his hands?

            My guess is either he was trying to restrain Trayvon so his suspect couldn't run away before the police came and/or that he had the gun out all along.

            Some people fight fire with fire. Professionals use water.

            by Happy Days on Sat Jul 20, 2013 at 09:06:39 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

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