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View Diary: No Place Left for Principled Debate? (A clarifying UPDATE) (152 comments)

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  •  No, they angry because (9+ / 0-)

    he used the false choice of white privilege to explain away why he didn't care about the NSA/FISA issue

    its a false choice for several reasons

    1. the spying is likely to affected people of color
    2. there is white privilege, and it can be seen in the Zimmmerman case, and it creates the image that there's no real white privilege because kos's use of it is such an obvious change of subject.

    The frustration is over the manipulation of what are two legitimate issues pitting them against each other when in fact they aren't

    Ultimately it underscores the problem with this site

    No one here is really at bottom interested in real change

    if they were, they wouldn't be framing it as either one address white privilege or one addresses spying

    Its an absurd Sophie's choice argument that typical of Democratic v Republican framing.

    •  My adversity to the NSA stuff (3+ / 0-)

      very much comes from my activism in the Latino community, trying to seek amnesty for undocumented people. I believe that the NSA stuff will only aid deportation efforts handsomely. So there's some truth to your statement. It doesn't sit well with me.

      Beyond that, I've also been concerned about the impact it has on Muslim-Americans.

      Finally, very much on people living abroad, outside of the US, in repressive regimes where finding out that certain people are dissidents, the "wrong" religion, or whatever would result in potential human rights issues. If the NSA is spying internationally, and they are from what we are hearing, then the non-domestic implications are really problematic.

      Not to mention the economic issues surrounding the desirability of American tech companies for a global buyer. Without some guarantee of privacy, these could be devalued, and that could result in yet more job losses in the US.

      Thus my continued opposition to the NSA. I don't see the two issues in conflict at all. I'm outraged by the treatment of African-Americans in the US, period, and wish that to stop, cease, end, end the incessant DWB, racial profiling, disproportionate incarceration, and institutional racism in our system. I suggest that outrage is not really exceptional, although more white people should share it with me. I'm glad that there are mass protests for racial justice today, one way or another, and hope to God this country wakes itself up because a lot of people are asleep at the wheel, or worse, just willing to accept fundamental wrongs.

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      by mahakali overdrive on Sat Jul 20, 2013 at 12:01:10 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  In fact, there have been several (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        corvo, JosephK74, 4kedtongue

        articles on how the immigration bill includes components that (1) make path to citizenship a decade or more long process (if ever) while (2) adding more layers of power to the security state

        This is not even getting into the corporate give aways in the bill, etc

        So, as  someone with a Latin background, I find Kos's position on the subject extremely counter productive

        The entire frame is a false one to describe this as white privilege  if one is concerned about the police state powers that are arising in this c ountry

        •  Like you, I definitely don't support (2+ / 0-)

          what I've seen in the immigration bill. In fact, a friend of mine just went to DC about a month or two ago as part of coalition of Progressive Democrats. He met with the President, and he did not have anything nice to say about the current proposals when he came home. His concerns struck me as extremely valid since I've always known him to be a very intelligent, albeit young, activist who is extremely motivated to reform the deportation and documentation process. It left me troubled. But that's beyond the scope of this diary.

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          by mahakali overdrive on Sat Jul 20, 2013 at 12:16:59 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  And the scary part is as conservative (4+ / 0-)

            as the Senate bill is, the House version will be even more conservative as far as path to citizenship and the security state issues (again not even including how bat shit its likely to be with the corporate giveaways)

            I wish I could find that argument on the subject- It was over at Naked Capitalism as a link, but I don't remember more than that

            •  We need to really keep discussing this (0+ / 0-)

              in a more public conversation. I see a lot of people ready to accept this bill. But this isn't what will move the arc of social justice in a positive direction, nor will it reduce the kinds of social justice and human rights issues that we're currently facing. And we're all complicit in this if we don't speak up on behalf of those who literally have no voice in our system.

              So I want to suggest that we really use our lungs, and that we not cave on this, and that we explain what a good immigration bill looks like. That's crucial. This is a place for a certain level of idealism because such major reform needs to happen. In this case, the Democratic Party holds a pretty good ace card in that Latinos are a growing, yet coveted, vote, and a majority would support a more comprehensive immigration reform bill (in most cases; I'm not stereotyping but speaking from stats that I've read on the matter over the years). We're foolish to throw that leverage away when it concerns what is a human rights issue.

              Click the ♥ to join us on the Black Kos front porch to review news & views written from a black pov - everyone is welcome.

              by mahakali overdrive on Sun Jul 21, 2013 at 06:03:38 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

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