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View Diary: RKBA: A question (241 comments)

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  •  this is just plan silly... (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    kharma, lyvwyr101

    ...

    There are no such things as warning shots.
    and when JayinPA posited it he got laughed at.

    We Glory in war, in the shedding of human blood. What fools we are.

    by delver rootnose on Mon Jul 22, 2013 at 08:51:21 AM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  Legally, there are no such things as warning (12+ / 0-)

      shots.

      Either you're in a situation where you shoot the criminal (or shoot with the intent to hit the criminal) OR you're not to the stage yet where lethal force is justified.

      Republicans cause more damage than guns ever will. Share Our Wealth

      by KVoimakas on Mon Jul 22, 2013 at 08:56:38 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Somebody needs to inform the Coast Guard.... (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        grover, lyvwyr101

        they fired warning shots at a drug smuggler boat this weekend.  Wonder why they aren't as proficient with their weapons?

        •  Coast Guards are civilians in self defense (12+ / 0-)

          situations?

          The Coast Guard, like the rest of the armed forces, operates differently than we civilians.

          Republicans cause more damage than guns ever will. Share Our Wealth

          by KVoimakas on Mon Jul 22, 2013 at 09:17:37 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Like KV said... (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          theatre goon, KVoimakas

          Civilans don't have arresting powers other then citizens' arrest.  In most states, you cannot use any force to detain when making a citizens arrest.  Only police have that authority.

          Civilians do not have a use of force spectrum.  You can either not lay a hand on anyone (the default) without it becoming a battery, or you can use force to defend yourself.  If a firearm is involved, it is always considered lethal force, and you have an even narrower window in which you are justified using it.Contrast this to civilian law enforcement, or the Military.  

          Police have a particularly broad force continuum, ranging from grabbing you if you verbally resist, to applying pressure on pressure points and joint locks if you physically resist, and then it escalates from there though less-then-lethal measures such as chemical agents, tazers, batons (if they carry them) up to full-on lethal force employing their firearms.  Civilans  simply don't.

          The military has rules of engagement and various states of weapon readiness;  from weapons hold, where you really can't fire unless in self defense, to weapons free, where you can fire at will, and several sates in between where different mixes of command and autonomy are employed.  Even then, SOP's and other standing orders may dictate weather or not warning shots are needed.  Civilans neither fall under UCMJ, nor do they enjoy a force continuum.

          You cannot compare a civilian self defense scenario to a millitary engagement, or a law enforcement officers use of force.

    •  JayinPA was actually correct. (12+ / 0-)

      It was the way he said it that was the problem.  He was a bit overly legalistic.

      KV is correct, legally there is no such thing as a "warning shot."  Warning shots are legally problematic for two reasons:  1) they violate at least two of the basic rules of gun safety (never point the muzzle at anything you're not willing to shoot, and be aware of your target and what's behind it), and can result in an innocent person being injured or killed; and 2) as KV notes, one should use lethal force only as a last resort in self defense, and firing a warning shot by definition indicates that you haven't gotten to that last resort stage.

      Do I feel sorry for Marissa Alexander?  Absolutely.  Do I think 20 years is justified?  Probably not; I have a huge problem with mandatory minimums.  Do I think she was justified in firing a "warning shot"?  As a gun owner, I would have to say no.

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