Skip to main content

View Diary: U.S. CENTCOM General: If Kerry-led Peace Talks Fail, Israel May Become an "Apartheid" State (238 comments)

Comment Preferences

  •  he is correct (9+ / 0-)

    All ethnic, religious or race-based states eventually fail and collapse, precisely because they cannot keep the "correct" group in power without at the same time keeping the "incorrect" group away from power.

    Israel will either cease being an ethnic or religious based state and become a real democracy, or it will become the new South Africa, trying to keep the privileged group in power and prevent the non-privileged group from gaining power.

    •  Most of Europe consists of ethnic based states (0+ / 0-)
      •  However, they do not usually have laws that (5+ / 0-)

        strongly advantage a member of a specific ethnicity or a person belonging to a specific religion. Unlike Israel.

        •  They do for immigration. (0+ / 0-)

          As does Israel.

          Regarding religious freedom, it is better to NOT be Jewish in Israel as you get out from under the thumb of a powerful Rabbinate. (Two new Chief Rabbis are being selected this Wednesday and in many respects they are more important than the government in terms of their impact on the daily lives of Israeli Jews.)

          •  they allow those immigrants to vote (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            corvo, merrywidow, poco

            If Israel, on the other hand, wants to be a Jewish state, they cannot allow Palestinians to vote.  Period. And that road leads to apartheid and collapse.  (shrug)

            PS--Palestinians live there too.  They are not immigrants.

          •  Yeah, on immigration every country picks and (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            poco

            chooses whom they want. But in other areas Israel is more restrictive than most imho.

          •  Which european nation has overtly racist (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            corvo, Anastasia Castro

            immigration laws like Israel?

            •  The basic principle of Israel's (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              JNEREBEL, charliehall2

              immigration law is that, if you would have been subject to murder at the hands of the Nazis as a Jew, then, unless you actively dissociate yourself from the Jewish people by converting to another religion, you're entitled to immigrate into Israel. I have difficulty denouncing that as "racist," overtly or otherwise. Meanwhile, if you strike the inappropriate characterization of Israel's immigration laws, I think you'll find democratic, European countries with analogous laws.

              Let's consider, for example, the Republic of Ireland (pdf). Its constitution begins:

              In the Name of the Most Holy Trinity, from Whom is all authority and to Whom, as our final end, all actions both of men and States must be referred
              Article 2 provides:
              It is the entitlement and birthright of every person born in the island of Ireland, which includes its islands and seas, to be part of the Irish Nation. That is also the entitlement of all persons otherwise qualified in accordance with law to be citizens of Ireland. Furthermore, the Irish nation cherishes its special affinity with people of Irish ancestry living abroad who share its cultural identity and heritage.
              On this basis, Irish citizenship may be available to the great-grandchild of someone born in Ireland, even though the grandparents, parents, and the great-grandchild herself were not born in Ireland.

              Shalom v' salaam; peace and wholeness

              by another American on Mon Jul 22, 2013 at 01:01:48 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  that's great. the Palestinians live there. (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                corvo, poco

                They are not immigrants. They are residents.

                Residents should be able to vote.

                •  And they should have citizenship (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  JNEREBEL

                  in their own state alongside Israel. I speak, of course, of the residents of the West Bank, east Jerusalem, and the Gaza Strip. Palestinian Israelis already are citizens of Israel with the right to vote, etc.

                  The issue under discussion, here, is immigration to Israel. Palestinians living outside the State of Israel are, by definition, not residents of Israel.

                  Shalom v' salaam; peace and wholeness

                  by another American on Mon Jul 22, 2013 at 02:28:12 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  alas, by illegally occupying Palestinian land, (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    corvo

                    Israel has already rejected the two-state solution, and embraced a "Greater Israel" single-state solution.

                    So they will have a choice----apartheid for Palestinians in their Bantu Homelands, or citizenship for Palestinians within the secular state of Israel.

                    Which will it be?

                    •  Please document (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      charliehall2

                      statements by the Israeli government that have "already rejected the two-state solution."

                      For sure, the government acts in ways that make its willingness to agree to such a peace settlement questionable. So, too, does the Palestinian Authority. And Hamas, of course, has enshrined in its charter a genocidal desire to eradicate both Israel and its Jewish citizens.

                      And yet, public opinion polling shows majority support among both Israelis and Palestinians for a two-states peace settlement. And that is what President Obama and Secretary Kerry are after.

                      If you think that to be pro-Palestinian you have to be anti-Israel, then you're part of the problem, not the solution.l

                      Shalom v' salaam; peace and wholeness

                      by another American on Mon Jul 22, 2013 at 03:14:08 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  it is occupying Palestine (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        corvo

                        That is, by definition, a one-state solution. And Israel has no plans whatever to change that situation.

                        If you think that to be pro-Palestinian you have to be anti-Israel, then you're part of the problem, not the solution
                        You are putting words in my mouth that are not mine---so you can have them back.  (shrug)

                        I am neither pro-Israel nor pro-Palestine---I think BOTH are equally doomed to failure and collapse.  NO state that is based on ethnicity, religion or race, is sustainable.  That includes a Jewish state and a Muslim state. Neither will survive.

                        The ONLY viable longterm solution is a single secular state in which both cultures can co-exist together, just as people of every race, religion and culture live peaceably together in the Western democracies. Alas, neither side wants that.

                •  They do vote (0+ / 0-)

                  if they live within the legal boundaries of the State of Israel.

              •  You are carefully avoiding the big elephant (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                AoT, corvo

                in the room. Yes, Ireland allows anyone with Irish ancestry to claim citizenship. Just like Israel. So far so good. BUT, Israel does NOT allow Palestinians who were born inside what is modern day Israel, to return.  Ireland has no such equivalent discrimination.

                •  The Czech Republic? Slovakia? (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  charliehall2

                  Poland? Do these, and other countries whence Germans fled at the end of World War II, allow those Germans and their descendants automatic citizenship?

                  If the Palestinians are to achieve a state--as I fervently hope they do--it will be alongside, not in place of, Israel. If that's not good enough for you, if you require Israel's destruction, please take those views elsewhere. Getting rid of Israel is not on Daily Kos's agenda.

                  If, on the other hand, you support a two-states-for-two-peoples peace settlement, then I suggest you keep your eyes on the prize.

                  Shalom v' salaam; peace and wholeness

                  by another American on Mon Jul 22, 2013 at 03:19:55 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  umm, the Benes decree (0+ / 0-)

                    is not considered to be one of the Great Moments in Human Rights.  Citing it as a precedent (let alone as a justification) would be unwise.

                    Dogs from the street can have all the desirable qualities that one could want from pet dogs. Most adopted stray dogs are usually humble and exceptionally faithful to their owners as if they are grateful for this kindness. -- H.M. Bhumibol Adulyadej

                    by corvo on Mon Jul 22, 2013 at 04:16:08 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Benes was a tremendous liberal (0+ / 0-)

                      and tried to save Democracy for Czechoslovakia.

                      Unfortunately he failed, twice, once against the Nazis and once against the Communists.

                      •  All true but (0+ / 0-)

                        irrelevant to the merits or lack thereof of the Benes Decree.  And you know it.

                        Dogs from the street can have all the desirable qualities that one could want from pet dogs. Most adopted stray dogs are usually humble and exceptionally faithful to their owners as if they are grateful for this kindness. -- H.M. Bhumibol Adulyadej

                        by corvo on Tue Jul 23, 2013 at 05:56:43 AM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                  •  'require Israel's destruction' is hyperbole (3+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    AoT, Anastasia Castro, corvo

                    I am merely pointing out the racism in Israel's immigration (AKA 'return') policy.

                  •  Comparing Palestinians to Germans? (3+ / 1-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Anastasia Castro, corvo, whizdom
                    Hidden by:
                    charliehall2

                    Are you fucking kidding? After Nazi Germany was expelled from those countries the Germans that lived there were also expelled. If patently offensive to compare that to a situation where Palestinians are consistently pushed off their land.

                    If debt were a moral issue then, lacking morals, corporations could never be in debt.

                    by AoT on Mon Jul 22, 2013 at 04:28:25 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  No we are not kidding (0+ / 0-)

                      Palestinians who live within the borders of the State of Israel vote.

                      Palestinians who do not, don't. There is no real interest in them becoming Israeli.

                    •  And I was wondering how long it would take (0+ / 0-)

                      to compare the Israelis to the Nazis.

                      Have a donut.

                      •  Disingenuous. (0+ / 0-)

                        AoT was responding to another American, who brought up the issue of forced transfer of populations in the wake of a war started by . . . what regime again?

                        Dogs from the street can have all the desirable qualities that one could want from pet dogs. Most adopted stray dogs are usually humble and exceptionally faithful to their owners as if they are grateful for this kindness. -- H.M. Bhumibol Adulyadej

                        by corvo on Tue Jul 23, 2013 at 06:02:56 AM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                      •  He brought up Nazi Germany (0+ / 0-)

                        and compared the expulsion of the Germans to the Palestinians, not me.

                        I am not comparing anyone in the conflict with Nazi Germany or Nazis at all.

                        Your HR is completely unwarranted.

                        If debt were a moral issue then, lacking morals, corporations could never be in debt.

                        by AoT on Tue Jul 23, 2013 at 09:13:48 AM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

            •  Germany, Ireland, United Kingdom (0+ / 0-)

              to name just three. People with ancestors in those countries can reclaim citizenship.

              •  Once again- you are avoiding the central issue (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                AoT

                It's good and fine that people with german, irish, and UK ancestry can claim citizenship. But which of those nations PREVENTS say, a Gypsy with german, irish, or british ancestry to reclaim their ancestry? That is the central issue. Israel is the only nation that has an overtly racist immigration policy, whereby a Palestinian who is born in Israel proper is not allowed to return, while a jew who has never set foot in Israel, and does not have any known ancestor who had been to Israel, is allowed to 'return'.

              •  I think even Italy allows anyone with one (0+ / 0-)

                Italian grandparent to claim citizenship.

                There are three kinds of stupid: 'Stupid', 'Really Stupid', and 'Stupid-Like-a-Republican'. With sincere apologies to Benjamin Disraeli.

                by MARTinNJ on Wed Jul 24, 2013 at 08:13:16 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

            •  Israel isn't racist (0+ / 0-)

              Its Jewish immigrants are of every race on the planet.

            •  Serbia? Oh wait, Serbia is not a good example of (0+ / 0-)

              a tolerant democracy.

              There are three kinds of stupid: 'Stupid', 'Really Stupid', and 'Stupid-Like-a-Republican'. With sincere apologies to Benjamin Disraeli.

              by MARTinNJ on Wed Jul 24, 2013 at 08:11:54 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

      •  none of them prevent any ethnic group from voting (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        corvo
    •  ALL states eventually fail and collapse (0+ / 0-)

      No need for adjectives.

      •  true that. but the ethnic/religious/racial ones (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Quicklund, corvo

        do it far more devestatingly to everyone around them.

        •  They are built on an inherent instability (0+ / 0-)

          That much is certain. At some point that instability is going to rear its head. So one likes 2nd-class citizenship - or worse.

          But look at South Africa. They emerged from that period with far less trauma than most anyone would have predicted 20 years prior.

          If you'd told me on my 21st birthday that the USSR would expire about ten years hence and in doing so only three people would die in the process it would have sounded like a pipe dream.

          So what the hell? Aim for optimism.

Subscribe or Donate to support Daily Kos.

Click here for the mobile view of the site