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View Diary: They didn't acquit Zimmerman, they convicted Trayvon Martin (120 comments)

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  •  I thought Zimmerman had been in a car... (8+ / 0-)

    why did he get out?  Why approach the young man?  Why draw a gun.  Why did this person even have a right to carry a gun?

    If Zimmerman didn't have a gun...what might have not happened?  

    Dollarocracy is not Democracy

    by leema on Mon Jul 22, 2013 at 04:42:44 PM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  Zimmerman was in a car (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Victor Ward

      looks like he got out sometime during the 7:11 minute. Presumably since Martin was going where he could not be tracked from the car any longer.

      We don't know with certainty who approached whom.

      Zimmerman drew a gun because Martin was assaulting him.
      2nd ammendment & conceal carry permit.

      Zimmerman might not be walking the earth today...among many other possibilities.

      •  Conjecture on your part: (17+ / 0-)
        Zimmerman drew a gun because Martin was assaulting him.
        Both those events are unknown, except for Zimmerman's explanation, which was not seen by any eyewitnesses.

        If I had one wish, Republican men would have uteruses.

        by Desert Rose on Mon Jul 22, 2013 at 05:11:09 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  We know that he fired the one shot (6+ / 0-)

          when Martin was leaning over him. Dr. DiMaio testified that is what the forensics from the gunshot showed.  So we know that at one point, he had the gun out with Martin over him, and that's when he fired the shot.

          Whether that's the first time he took out the gun or he had it out earlier, we don't know for sure.  The only evidence one way or the other are Zimmerman's statements to the police.  

          •  Dead boys tell no tales. (8+ / 0-)

            If I had one wish, Republican men would have uteruses.

            by Desert Rose on Mon Jul 22, 2013 at 05:48:53 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  Zimmerman contradicted himself and reality (6+ / 0-)

            So many times that I automatically discount everything he says.  He told the story that made him in the right, and who the fuck knows what really happened.  Aside from the body of the kid in question bearing no evidence of actually hitting Zimmerman, the only other evidence we have is the bullet in Martin's chest and Zimmerman's wildly unbelievable bullshit story.  His head injuries could have been entirely his own creation, to justify his just-committed murder, and there's no way to verify anything else, since he refused to be properly examined right after the fight.  

            As I have patiently explained to my kids, one lie to me, and you have to prove your words a thousand times, and maybe more, for me to believe anything you say again.

            As for any insinuation that Martin was the aggressor, well, he didn't have a goddamn rap sheet of proven violence like Zimmerman.

            •  did you miss the ME (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Victor Ward

              testimony that Martin's knuckles were bruised?

              •  I did... (0+ / 0-)

                I haven't been able to find a transcript yet, what is the exact quote?

                This makes about as much sense as Mike Huckabee on mescaline. - Prodigal 2-6-2008

                by Tonedevil on Mon Jul 22, 2013 at 06:49:47 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  What about Zimmerman's hands and arms? (5+ / 0-)

                Isn't it strange that there is not a mark, not a bruise, not a scratch on George's hands or arms?

                Here he was, supposedly taking a beating from Trayvon--but what was he doing? Even if he couldn't throw a single punch, he'd be putting his arms over his face to protect it.

                But no. Not even a bruise.

                So what was Zimmerman doing with his hands, if not fighting or even protecting himself?

                Seems almost inevitable he must have had something in his hands.

                Either he was holding onto Trayvon's sweatshirt so T couldn't get away, or he already had the gun out, and T was not punching, but rather trying to keep the gun from pointing at him.

                Some people fight fire with fire. Professionals use water.

                by Happy Days on Mon Jul 22, 2013 at 07:27:59 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

            •  Say what? (3+ / 0-)

              Make your mind up. Which of these statements you have made in this diary do you actually support?

              'We know what happened'

              Or

              'and who the fuck knows what really happened'

              Your belief is based purely on what you 'think' happened. As Johnny Wurster stated above this is the foundation for an acquittal whether you like it or not.

              Do you not believe the state must prove what happened beyond all reasonable doubt?

          •  Doctor DiMaio was testifying for pay. His 'expert" (6+ / 0-)

            chuckle filled blowhardery should be taken as self serving and suspect.

            If Trayvon and zHole were standing, as 2 witnesses say they were when the shot was fired, and if z's DNA on a lower right portion of TM's hooddie, z could have been holding TM by his clothing with his left hand while he shot him with the gun in his right hand. The bullet goes from left to right thru TM straight into his chest. Not lower entry to higher stopping point which seems more likely if z is flat on his back and TM is angled over him.

            And if TM is pounding z's head into the weaponized sidewalk, why is the top of TM's head nearly 6' from the sidewalk with his legs stretched out straight behind him? TM's feet are 5'11' further from the deadly sidewalk than the top of his head. TM had to be leaning over the sidewalk to pound z's on it. Rolling TM over once doesn't get him so for away from the sidewalk, TM's weapon of chice.

            And coffeetalk, as a once young gang member myself, who was in lots of really scary fights, there is no authenticity, none, in GZ's description of his 'beating' none.

            •  which 2 witnesses were (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Victor Ward, Dr Swig Mcjigger

              these?

              •  Look it up on the interwebs. I've read this (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                bobatkinson

                in more than one article on the eye witness accounts of interviewed residents. These witnesses were the furthest away from the scene. And though they weren't as certain about what they saw as Good, or as close, they may have seen the encounter between TM and z in its final deadly moments.

                How did TM's lifeless body get so far from the sidewalk?

              •  I watched most of the testimony live (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Dr Swig Mcjigger

                and my recollection of the witnesses who saw them standing is that it was in the earlier stages of the struggle when there was a verbal exchange and shoving/wrestling.

                No one witnessed the actual shot being fired.

                Good saw Trayvon on top before the shot was fired.

                The Spanish-speaking witness saw Zimm on top immediately after the shot was fired. She said she saw the man who was astride the other man get up and start pacing.

                Some people fight fire with fire. Professionals use water.

                by Happy Days on Mon Jul 22, 2013 at 07:36:51 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Well then you are probably right. I remembered (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  bobatkinson

                  these witnesses as stating that killer and victim were standing when the shot was fired, but were not sure because of their distance from the shooting.

                  And I thought if they were standing that would explain why Martins lifeless body is so far from the sidewalk. The sidewalk he was using as a weapon according to the defense. TM would have to be leaning over this sidewalk to beat z's head on it. Why is the top of Trayvon's head so for from the sidewalk and his stretched out legs and feet further still?

            •  Dr. DiMaio is not some ordinary hack (7+ / 0-)

              He quite literally "wrote the book" that others rely on.

              And if what you say made scientific sense, the prosecution would have had its own forensic pathologist to counter Dr. DiMaio's testimony.  

              I'm a lawyer, I've seen lots of experts.  Some are, indeed, hacks.  But those with the credentials of Dr. DiMaio won't sell themselves out for any one case -- that damages their overall credibility, which makes them less valuable for the next 10 cases.  

              When a jury has an expert with those kinds of credentials, they tend to take what he says, especially if his testimony is undisputed at the trial.  

              •  The key stone prosecution team didn't even suggest (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                bobatkinson, Tonedevil

                until the closing statements that TM might have been standing and backing up when he was shot. Nor did they ever bring up the location of Trayvon's body in relation to the weaponized sidewalk. Why is it so far from the epicenter of the 'fight'? Maybe it never crossed their sleepy minds to get their own experts.  

                If z was holding onto TM's hoodie, that would pull the already oversized shirt even further down his torso. Which as Dr. Chuckles pointed out, had an entry hole lower than the entry hole into TM's body. Which he explained, for money, happened because as TM leaned forward the shirt fell forward.

                The spoil from the encounter litters the scene from on the sidewalk to each thing, phone, flashlite, etc, further away, until you reach TM's lifeless body the furthest away of all.  

                Was he backing away as z advanced gun and Trayvon's hoodie in hand?

                •  the evidence at trial says "no." (6+ / 0-)
                  Was he backing away as z advanced gun and Trayvon's hoodie in hand?
                  Dr. DiMaio testified that the forensics (gunshot effect on Martin's clothes and skin) was consistent with Martin on top of Zimmerman leaning over him, and not consistent with both of them standing upright.  

                  The prosecution did not introduce any forensic testimony of its own to contradict that testimony.  

                  •  But do I have to believe everything zHole says and (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    bobatkinson

                    everything a hired gun says about z's gun?

                    Dr. Chuckles contacted the defense. He was itching to get him some of that national spotlight shinning his way. Book sales?

                    Somebody should have asked him why the victims body was so far the weaponized sidewalk.

                    He also contradicted all the other examining medicos and said that the scratches and bumps z had could have killed him.

                    Book sales and hackery.

                     

                    •  Indeed (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      VClib
                      But do I have to believe everything zHole says and everything a hired gun says about z's gun?
                      No. Not at all. You don't have to believe a single word of it.

                      Dammit Jim, I'm a lawyer, not a grammarian. So sue me.

                      by Pi Li on Tue Jul 23, 2013 at 05:46:39 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                •  It was a huge mistake to go there at all (0+ / 0-)

                  Because it undersmines the effort they put into trying to portray Zimmerman as being on top and shooting downward with witnesses like Surdyka. Undercut the theory of the case, such as it was, at that point. If I were a juror, I'd be thinking "WTF" with this new theory all of a sudden.

                  •  Why not mention that TM's lifeless body is no (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Tonedevil

                    where near the weaponized sidewalk. If z had to shoot him because he was getting his head banged to death on it, Trayvon would have been kneeling on z right on top of it.

                    Why is the top of the victims head 6' or more from the edge of the sidewalk with his legs and feet straight out behind him even further from the sidewalk?

                    WTF indeed.

              •  His having written the book (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Tonedevil

                does not guarantee that he has integrity or that he does not have a price...

                Fear doesn't just breed incomprehension. It also breeds a spiteful, resentful hate of anyone and everyone who is in any way different from you.

                by awesumtenor on Mon Jul 22, 2013 at 11:19:28 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Agreed. The prosecution had a tough path to (0+ / 0-)

                  conviction on murder 2 and Dr Chuckles got some national spotlight and a pretty good chance of being on the winning side and a boost in book sales.

                  I could give him the benefit of the doubt but his guess work, and that is all it was, always came down for z. Even to saying the actual examining medicos were wrong about the severity of z's scratches and bump. They said superficial he says life threatening. And of course he's the expert who wrote the book.

                  And contacted the defense and testified for money.

          •  Zimmerman is a liar. (4+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Tonedevil, buffie, a2nite, Desert Rose

            And DiMaio wasn't a witness. He was called to give an infomercial for the defense. The prosecution had so many opportunities to expose him but for one reason or another made a feeble cross examination.

            liberal bias = failure to validate or sufficiently flatter the conservative narrative on any given subject

            by RockyMtnLib on Mon Jul 22, 2013 at 09:56:21 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  not much of a conjecture (0+ / 0-)

          it seems ridiculous to me that Martin is able to beat Zimmerman for nearly a minute while Zimmerman is holding a drawn gun.

          •  Martin didn't beat Zimmerman for nearly a minute. (4+ / 0-)

            How can you believe that he did?

            Even the defense only contended it was 40 seconds.

            And a critical examination of the evidence makes that story very hard to believe.

            Cement: The abrasions on Z's head could have come from contact with the sidewalk, but were not consistent with being slammed into the sidewalk with force--not even once much less numerous times. Plus, whatever contact was made with the sidewalk ended well before the shot, as evidenced by the position of the body. Even the defense's own animation shows "position 3" with both parties well away from the sidewalk.

            Ground and Pound: If, after G "squirmed" away from the sidewalk, he was getting pounded in the face, why didn't he have more than a broken nose? And why wasn't the blood from his nose smeared more around his face from all that contact? Why didn't G protect his head and face with his arms? Clearly he did not--no bruises on the arms, no bruises on the face, kinda suggests no punches, eh?

            There was no beating.

            There may have been a punch to the nose at some point or  recoil from the gun could have injured the nose.

            T was either trying to make Z let go of him or keep from pointing that gun at him.  

            Some people fight fire with fire. Professionals use water.

            by Happy Days on Mon Jul 22, 2013 at 07:52:35 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  You are sick. (6+ / 0-)

        All the evidence points to a direct assault by Zimm. He's a liar, obviously.

        A true craftsman will meticulously construct the apparatus of his own demise.

        by onionjim on Mon Jul 22, 2013 at 05:30:41 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Definition of "assault." (8+ / 0-)

          Under Florida law.

          784.011 Assault.—
          (1) An “assault” is an intentional, unlawful threat by word or act to do violence to the person of another, coupled with an apparent ability to do so, and doing some act which creates a well-founded fear in such other person that such violence is imminent.
          We do not have evidence that Zimmerman assaulted Martin.  The prosecution's supposition was that Zimmerman pulled out his gun and pointed it at Martin, prompting Martin to hit him, but they had no evidence of that.  

          Following someone, without an intentional threat of violence, is not an assault.    We know Zimmerman followed Martin.  We don't know whether he made a threat of violence while doing that.  

      •  reporting opinion as fact isn't right (7+ / 0-)

        "Zimmerman drew a gun because Martin was assaulting him"

        That is one side of the story, told by the person who is alive to tell it.

        It may or may not be true.

        Many people who find themselves supporters of GZ make the cognitive error of using what he said happened as FACT and then basing their opinion and conclusions on that.

        We do not know that TM was assaulting him. We know only that TM  possibly assaulted him ONE TIME. The medical examiner says that GZ injuries are consistent with one punch and one blow to the head.

        That is all we know for certain. No punch of GZ landed hard enough to do damage to TM and, at the most...IF there was a punch, theoretically...One punch of TM landed hard enough to do (relatively little) damage to GZ.

        The rest is on the word of Zimmerman, only. No witnesses saw or heard punches.

        •  Let's imagine for a moment (6+ / 0-)

          That we're walking down the street.  A strange person is following us in a car.  Or, even a person we know but who is NOT a friend.  

          Then, disturbingly, this person stops the car as you leave the road, AND GETS OUT TO COME AFTER YOU.

          I'm just stunned that anyone can imagine this scenario without picturing the dread that would come over a young boy, watching this shit happen.  Zimmerman was doing something very creepy and threatening, and if I were the target of that kind of attention you BET YOUR SWEET ASS I'D TAKE A SWING at the guy who followed me in his car, and then got out to keep following me.  

          Of course, I don't have a Fox News-supplied fake picture of some mug shot in my head when I picture Martin.  Perhaps that's why I can see it, and anyone who was tarnished by a tv set in the last two years can't.

          •  Just so you know (12+ / 0-)

            If a person is in a car on a public street and appears to be following you, and then stops the car and gets out and starts following you on foot, all in a public place where both of you have a legal right to be, and you hit him, YOU have committed the crime of battery.  He has committed no crime.

            You are not justified in hitting him unless and until he makes an overt threat of violence or force, or actually uses violence or force, against you.  If he follows you AND when he gets to you, points a gun at you, or tries to hit you, THEN you can hit him.  If he comes up to you and says something really, really, nasty (calls you a name, or maybe an ethnic slur) but not in any way threatening violence, you are NOT legally justified in hitting him.

            •  Just so you know (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Tonedevil

              if Martin had killed Zimmerman in exactly the circumstances you're describing, he'd be alive and free today, because the standards for the SYG defense are considerably lower than those for assault. Plus no reliable witnesses, of course.

              Oh, but this is Sanford, Florida we're talking about. Never mind.

              Let us all have the strength to see the humanity in our enemies, and the courage to let them see the humanity in ourselves.

              by Nowhere Man on Tue Jul 23, 2013 at 04:43:32 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

          •  I entirely agree with you-misunderstanding? (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Tonedevil, Nowhere Man

            or misplaced under my comment?

             Elsewhere  on this diary we had this same conversation where you let me know about the killer's hollow bullets. You responded with that when I'd been commenting on how important it is to look at it from TM point of view...I'd said that we have solid evidence that TM took of running when he saw GZ on the phone, and we have solid evidence GZ did run after, and that TM had to experience being chased in the rain in the dark by a strange adult male for no known reason.

            I don't imagine this scenario without primarily seeing it from the innocent person's (unarmed person walking home) position. If people can look passed any racial bias they have, the normal fallback should be (should have been) to imagine any scenario from the position of the person walking home who was unarmed. They should think "that could have been me!" That people don't is very very telling.

      •  ZimHole says he was being assaulted. He says his (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        slippytoad

        superficial scratches and bruises were because of Trayvon attacking him. These scratches and bruises required only minor 1st aid. Basically they were cleaned. The attending EMT says they did not even require a band aid. z refused to go to the ER. No one living, save z, knows how he got these nicks and bumps.

      •  um (6+ / 0-)

        We fucking do.  Zimmerman had to have approached Martin, because HE GOT OUT OF THE CAR TO DO SO.  That's not requiring of a guess.  Had the little asshole obeyed orders and stayed in his car, NO CONFRONTATION WOULD HAVE BEEN POSSIBLE.

        Is this that colossally fucking difficult to get through some people's thick skull?

        And, Zimmerman drew a gun because he's a fucking coward, and wanted to make sure he had the overwhelming advantage over an unarmed kid, which his hollow point bullets ensured.  

        •  Zimmerman told the (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Victor Ward

          operator that he lost sight of Martin After leaving the car.

          7:11:59 — In reply to the dispatcher's question, "Are you following him?" Zimmerman responds with, "Yes." Dispatcher: "OK, we don't need you to do that." Zimmerman: "OK."
           7:12:00 – 7:12:59 — The girl calls Martin again at some point during this minute.
           7:13:10 — Zimmerman says he does not know Martin's location.
           7:13:41 — The end of Zimmerman's call to Sanford police

          Zimmerman loses Martin for a minimum of 30 seconds. This allows either the opportunity to approach the other.

      •  Is "DVeight" really George Zimmerman? (0+ / 0-)
    •  Only fact that matters (0+ / 0-)

      Is that Zimmerman chose to go after him after being told not to.

      That alone should preclude any claim of defense, because it is Zimmerman beginning the encounter, beginning the attack.

      There is a narrow exception where an attacker then flees, and the victim restarts the encounter.
      - To get this exception, the burden flips and the defendant original attacker has to prove his case.

      AND THIS IS THE PROBLEM...

      Self defense itself is an AFFIRMATIVE defense. You can't get it unless you prove it.

      Everyone has the burdens flipped here.

      An acquittal without Zimmerman taking the stand and arguing self defense... that is saying that Zimmerman didn't even shoot Martin, or didn't shoot a human being.

      To get self defense... Zimmerman would have had to argue self defense. Which as far as I know, he did not do.

      The moment you bring a self defense claim, the prosecution no longer has to prove anything. The defense now has the burden and has to prove its case.

      That this never happened is why I make my claim: the tried Trayvon there, not Zimmerman. They never even bothered with Zimmerman's case... the whole show was about vindicating their need to see Martin as less than human.

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