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View Diary: Holder to Russia: "Torture is unlawful in the United States." (338 comments)

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  •  You were making categorical statements (12+ / 0-)

    that are vigorously contradicted by FACTS that we have all heard, read and seen in recent years.

    I did not "seriously think" that any of the lawlessness and extra-judicial briggandage that we have witnessed in recent memories could happen in this free country. So, I hope that you understand why this jaundiced American doesn't put much stock in your assurance about what will or will not happen to a "lowly hacker" who has all been tried and convicted by the those whose opinions count in these things.

    •  Categorical statements? (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      PhilJD, middleagedhousewife, poco

      Which ones?  I re-read what I wrote, and it does not seem especially categorical to me.  Snowden will not be held as an enemy combatant, but as a federal prisoner. I am not denying the risk of abuse in federal prison, nor am I justifying any form of abuse whatsoever. I don't think there's much evidence, though, under this administration, of civilians held in the US for trial in federal court being tortured. Perhaps you have some examples.

      I think what stings, and what people react to, is my contention that holding people offshore in a judicial black hole like Guantanamo is a much more severe and fundamental violation of both basic human rights and the Constitution than the NSA collection and archiving of domestic communications that Snowden exposed. (I also still think that stealing an archive of NSA documents is actually illegal, even if the specific whistleblowing on the NSA data collection might be justified.)

      The difference in degree of anger is because people here feel personally affected by the NSA data collection, and they do not feel the same way about torture and indefinite detention in Guantanamo.  (Or the deportation of 200,000 parents of US citizens, for that matter. This is probably the point Markos was trying to make, although he was pretty inelegant in the way he stated it.) In terms of actual harm done, Guantanamo and immigration policy are orders of magnitude worse. Pointing out the disparity in outrage does seems to strike a nerve with people though.  I agree with someone else who commented earlier - they would be OK with a trial for Snowden if John Yoo was also charged with a crime.  I sort of agree with that. I'd like to see them both in court.

      “If the misery of the poor be caused not by the laws of nature, but by our institutions, great is our sin.” Charles Darwin

      by ivorybill on Fri Jul 26, 2013 at 01:41:50 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

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