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    •  You Mean a Liberal Party. (24+ / 0-)

      "Democratic" does not mean liberal or nonconservative.

      We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy.... --ML King "Beyond Vietnam"

      by Gooserock on Fri Jul 26, 2013 at 03:16:53 PM PDT

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      •  not really. Thanks to the current state (26+ / 0-)

        of the Democratic Party, "liberal" has returned to its 19c European meaning: corporate without being quite corporatist.

        Dogs from the street can have all the desirable qualities that one could want from pet dogs. Most adopted stray dogs are usually humble and exceptionally faithful to their owners as if they are grateful for this kindness. -- H.M. Bhumibol Adulyadej

        by corvo on Fri Jul 26, 2013 at 03:20:23 PM PDT

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        •  Though moving rapidly in the latter direction (7+ / 0-)

          these days among the "liberal" Democrats like Obama and Larry Summers...

          "Government by organized money is just as dangerous as Government by organized mob." -- Franklin D. Roosevelt

          by Kombema on Fri Jul 26, 2013 at 06:57:28 PM PDT

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        •  Gooserock's point is exquisitely well-taken. Fakes (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Sunspots, caul, gooderservice

          like Summers don't get to steal my label from me. That is the difference between some progressives (not you) and liberals like me. As a liberal it is against my principles to passively allow hate-filled entities to steal or sully my label unchallenged, and I'm not going all star-belly at the behest of my enemies. If your enemy can make you change the name you call yourself he is defeating you.

          Enough fossil fuel remains on Earth to warm it 6 degrees C by 2100 AD if it is all used. A +6 C planet will only sustain half a billion humans. Human population will rise to 9 billion by 2050. Any questions?

          by davidincleveland on Fri Jul 26, 2013 at 10:25:41 PM PDT

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          •  Liberals believed LBJ was correct, but .. (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            JesseCW

            He sacrificed our nation's blood and treasure to shore up a corrupt regime in Vietnam (which we created) to stop the menace of Communism (which was really nationalism).

            That's why I am not a Liberal. That's why I call myself a Progressive.

            Carbon di-oxide in the atmosphere is now 400ppm. That is "Climate Cluster Chaos" of the worst order if there ever was one. (hat tip to JeffW for CCC)

            by Zinman on Fri Jul 26, 2013 at 11:22:40 PM PDT

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            •  I am neither. (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              No Exit, shaharazade, Zinman

              I am an eclectic Independent and Socialist Democrat.  

              What we need is a Democrat in the White House. Warren/Spitzer 2016

              by dkmich on Sat Jul 27, 2013 at 04:19:34 AM PDT

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            •  Wherever you bought this MYTH from, (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              shaharazade
              Liberals believed LBJ was correct
              you should go back and demand a refund, because you've been defrauded. I don't care if you got that misinformation from your school, your library or your relatives, it is a total lie to say that we liberals supported the Vietnam War.

              Just who the hell do you think forced a Democratic president from seeking that final term? This was a politician who had Democratic majorities in both Houses. We liberals in and out of the Democratic Party made it clear to a man who had nurtured that party for 50 years that we would split it, and throw the 1968 election to the Republican nominee.

              The rest of the Democratic Party has never forgiven us liberals for our opposition to the Vietnam War but at the time we liberal Democrats convinced LBJ to quit. Ever since, the American cultural establishment and the M.I.C.-purchased opinion-fakers have sought to destroy our 'brand' with lies.

              With you, Zinman, they seem to have succeeded, but I don't fault you for that. Of course, if you continue to believe the lies you were taught about what we liberals did and said in the '60s, that's on you. I've said enough to make you start scrambling for the actual online archives that absolutely verify what I've said here. Find your own links if you are interested.

              I'm glad you call yourself a Progressive because of a matter of principle, even though you were misinformed about the reality, the actual history. I sincerely hope you'll take the minimal effort required on your part to verify or disprove what I've written here.

              I lived through that war and earlier ones, and was an active part of the super-massive liberal rebellion within the Democratic Party and in the streets of America but you have only my dk word on that. Trust me --but verify. After all, your failure to verify the myth you were taught is what prompted this response.

              Next time you'll want to get it right, because every time you or anyone here repeats that right-wing meme and lie about liberals you hurt progressive causes. You also directly insult hundreds of us here at the great orange satan who still bear the scars of how hard we fought that filthy war and our own president.

              Enough fossil fuel remains on Earth to warm it 6 degrees C by 2100 AD if it is all used. A +6 C planet will only sustain half a billion humans. Human population will rise to 9 billion by 2050. Any questions?

              by davidincleveland on Sat Jul 27, 2013 at 09:14:33 AM PDT

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              •  Amen to that (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                davidincleveland

                david. The established political machine and the media worked hard to make liberal a dirty word. The D party turned the left into DFH and then we got authority loving Raygun Dems. Political fictions abound and misinformation tells a different story then what really happened.

                I would say that many of the progressive, liberal causes especially the social one's like LGBT, women's rights, the war on poverty, civil rights, regulation, environmentalism all sprung out of the 60's. Even Nixon's administration had enough sense to tread carefully like with the EPA.  

                Most of the changes that era of populist liberalism ushered in are being reversed non paritsanly. We now have degrees of conservatism with moderate or centrist used to define the saner less theocratic form of what the Dems have become since the DLC took over. Poppies other son, Clinton set the stage for the third Way crooks that we have running the country now.  

                The political spectrum left, center, right is now just a fiction that means nothing as we have no choice between liberal and conservative other then not quite as nuts and theocratic. Even when we vote for a liberal  and they win they have no power within the party, and the 'preogressives' refuse to take on the Third Way Dem. political machine that owns and runs our party.

                Obama's administration has made me not  'self identify' as a progressive. I'm an unabashed liberal. One of the worst things that Obama has done, imo is wrecked the Democratic party to the point where what we once fought against we now call 'two legs better'. FDR is now debunked and history has been revised.        

                •  We have an alternative to "liberalism" (0+ / 0-)

                  Liberals have gone along with the worst of the right wing BS we are suffering from. When do we have to say we have had enough of enabling the right-wingers? We have to come out and say we are Progressives, we don't compromise with right wing assholes, like liberals do, we don't get into foreign wars of aggression on behalf of the corporatists and right wing fascists amonst us. We have our own agenda, and it is not a  faux populist liberalism, it is a genuine left wing, pro-labor, pro-environmentalist, and pro-civil rights movement.

                  Carbon di-oxide in the atmosphere is now 400ppm. That is "Climate Cluster Chaos" of the worst order if there ever was one. (hat tip to JeffW for CCC)

                  by Zinman on Sun Jul 28, 2013 at 12:33:38 AM PDT

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              •  Liberals created the VN war, and I was a casualty (0+ / 0-)

                Yes, indeed, I am a Vietnam combat veteran, I was forced out of university in my senior year by the draft and I went to war in Vietnam in 1968. I was a war protester at UC Berkeley and for that reason I got a draft notice revoking my student deferment in my senior year.

                Liberals bought into the war LBJ worsened, but radicals like me, or shall we say, the the left wing progressives of the day did not. If you were not in Vietnam with me as a soldier, and if you were a male of draftable age at time, then you don't have a leg to stand on in this conversation,  unless you went to prison to protest the war like some of those around here did, and by doing so they shamed all of us who did not have their courage and moral conviction.

                Perhaps we have a definitional problem: LBJ was a great man and also a troubled man, he furthered civil rights like no one else of his time, but he foolishly bought into the domino theory of creeping Communism which was popular amongst all but the left at the time, and he led our nation into a devastating war against a popular uprising against a corrupt government in Vietnam. We should have supported Ho Chi Minh in his fight against colonial powers, instead of propping them up.

                To me, liberal is a dirty word because liberals supported the war in Vietnam. Progressives did not, Socialists did not, anti-colonialists did not, and therefore, LBJ died on his cross because he could not throw off his liberal advisors and other liberal supporters of the Vietnam War in time to save the lives of tens of thousands of my fellow soldiers in the Vietnam War, and also thereby prevented the deaths of untold hundreds of thousands of innocent Vietnamese civilians. Let those of you who support liberalism make your case that prolonging the Vietnam war was just, and worth the cost of hundreds of thousands of lives lost in that misbegotten imperialist war, or just disavow that label and join me as a progressive.

                Carbon di-oxide in the atmosphere is now 400ppm. That is "Climate Cluster Chaos" of the worst order if there ever was one. (hat tip to JeffW for CCC)

                by Zinman on Sat Jul 27, 2013 at 11:44:04 PM PDT

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                •  You are a fool to believe an utter lie about the (0+ / 0-)

                  most life-changing events of your life. I was honorably discharged from the US Navy in 1959, after 4 months plus 12 days of service. When Kennedy sent advisers to Vietnam I started protesting. My younger brother was sent to that war against his choice and against his legal rights, but even if I'd been an only child I'd have been protesting on behalf of my democracy, in which I am vested by birth and contribution. And in addition to my brother his friends and many of mine were being forced to go.

                  What did I do in the war between those of us who opposed and the MIC?

                  If you were not in Vietnam with me as a soldier, and if you were a male of draftable age at time, then you don't have a leg to stand on in this conversation,  unless you went to prison to protest the war like some of those around here did.
                  I was too old as well as ineligible for re-enlistment, even if I had supported the war. I've been locked up both for protesting the war and for civil rights, but that isn't the same as going to prison and I'm not suggesting any equivalency.

                  I've always been a pragmatist. If I'm going to risk prison it had to be for a goal I considered substantive and attainable, and thus worth the risk. I helped get friends and others to Canada. The risk of prison was quite real for me, and in fact the FBI confronted me over the fact that a former employee went to Canada on a passport which the US thought it had issued to me. That was the maximum a poor black American in his early twenties could do, in my case, and I did it. To me, risking prison but getting someone to freedom even if you're busted for it, is activism. YMMV.

                  You admit to spending 6 months beyond your tour as a volunteer, so you have no clue who here at home was fighting against this war. We liberals had been trying to keep America out of Vietnam since Dien Bien Phu in 1954. If you didn't know that before you were drafted or enlisted, it isn't because liberals weren't in the streets about it. We were so serious that the establishment of the Democratic Party set the Chicago cops on us in 1968.

                  Go read some actual archives of the events you lived through, since you weren't paying attention to the actual participants at the time. All you're doing here is convincing people that you get your info about liberals from Fox.

                  Enough fossil fuel remains on Earth to warm it 6 degrees C by 2100 AD if it is all used. A +6 C planet will only sustain half a billion humans. Human population will rise to 9 billion by 2050. Any questions?

                  by davidincleveland on Sun Jul 28, 2013 at 06:23:20 PM PDT

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              •  OK, davidincleveland, you have called me out (0+ / 0-)

                Where the fuck were you during the Vietnam War? I was in it for one and half years. Yes, I volunteered for the last six months, and so again I ask you, where the fuck were you?

                Carbon di-oxide in the atmosphere is now 400ppm. That is "Climate Cluster Chaos" of the worst order if there ever was one. (hat tip to JeffW for CCC)

                by Zinman on Sun Jul 28, 2013 at 12:16:02 AM PDT

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                •  Here is my answer, in another comment: (0+ / 0-)

                  I was here. In addition to the hostages to fortune that my younger brother and friends were for me, my best friend --a paratrooper-- died 70 days before the ceasefire. He didn't die in 'Nam, he took his own life in NYC because he could no longer live with his deeds. JMO had already been thrown out of Vietnam and the Army for refusing to carry his rifle.

                  We were living together the last 2 years of his life, and I was working to help homeless 'Nam veterans at the time, but the only explanation in conversation he ever offered about it was as follows: He said, "I looked at all these people I was shooting at and realized they were brown, just like me. And they hadn't done anything to me. So I decided I wasn't going to kill any more of them. When I'd go visit the mama-sans after that I left my rifle in camp."

                  Zinman, I'm glad you came back alive and able to survive the aftermath. JMO has been dead 40 years, 8 months and 10 days. I miss him every night and every morning. I still sometimes wake up in the middle of the night after dreaming he is lying next to me. I don't begrudge you your life. I will not tolerate your ignorance about what liberals did while you were volunteering to extend your tour, if you really don't know better. If I called you out it was to tell you to do some research instead of repeating Beck-style lies. You came back with your bare assertion that you were right and offered your service as a justification for your right to make your false claim. Ain't gonna fly.

                  Enough fossil fuel remains on Earth to warm it 6 degrees C by 2100 AD if it is all used. A +6 C planet will only sustain half a billion humans. Human population will rise to 9 billion by 2050. Any questions?

                  by davidincleveland on Sun Jul 28, 2013 at 07:01:24 PM PDT

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                  •  David, we are representative of victims of the War (0+ / 0-)

                    1. I don't repeat Beck-style lies. I refute them. I hate him and all the right wing assholes who spout his bullshit.

                    2. I don't criticize you from the right, I criticize you from the left.

                    3. Liberal is a term I associate with those who are leftish on social issues, but hawkish on foreign policy. President Johnson was ambivalent, and ultimately he did not run for a second term because of his guilt about his culpability in all the carnage he caused while he was blowing off all the protests in the streets by Progressives and Radicals like you and me. Liberals were still behind him and the War until the end. I marched with the VVAW and other anti-War groups while the War was still on-going. We were rejecting the pro-war liberalism of the architects of the Vietnam War. We rejected all of it's premises. My perspective on liberalism versus progressivism is shaped by being in the San Francisco Bay area both before and after I came back from the War. I didn't like the liberals who supported the War, I liked the radicals and Progessives who fought in the streets against the War.  I was in Oakland, Berkeley and San Francisco, maybe things were different here than where you were.

                    4. My extension of my tour of duty had several reasons attached to it, and none of them had anything to do with support for the War. First, I had a younger brother who could have been sent into the War had I not still been there, so I chose to stay because I wanted to protect him. Second, I had learned a lot in the time I was there, and I could use that knowledge, and the position I had achieved, to protect my unit and fellow soldiers, from taking unnecessary casualties.

                    I think we have a lot in common, and have a lot of similar attitudes. I think the only problem we have is that I have chosen to make a distinction between the term "liberal" which I associate with complicity in the War, and the fact that you do not make that distinction.

                    I am sorry for your losses due to the War.

                    Carbon di-oxide in the atmosphere is now 400ppm. That is "Climate Cluster Chaos" of the worst order if there ever was one. (hat tip to JeffW for CCC)

                    by Zinman on Sun Jul 28, 2013 at 10:03:29 PM PDT

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    •  Seriously true (27+ / 0-)

      We only have one party with 2 branches.  Both serve the corporate interest.

      There already is class warfare in America. Unfortunately, the rich are winning.

      by Puddytat on Fri Jul 26, 2013 at 03:34:04 PM PDT

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