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View Diary: White House Henchman Begs Russian Henchman to Return Snowden: "We won't torture or kill him" (86 comments)

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  •  Hypocrite, heal thyself. (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    doc2, Bush Bites, sviscusi

    My opinion about people who leak classified information to push a political agenda hasn't changed since the Valerie Plame case.

    Yours?

    Oh, wait, I know: that was different, because you like Snowden's agenda, but didn't like Scooter Libby's.

    Please, continue to hold forth on how people who haven't flip-flopped the way you have are the hypocrites.

    Art is the handmaid of human good.

    by joe from Lowell on Fri Jul 26, 2013 at 06:46:33 PM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  You know he did this? (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Barton Funk, corvo, DeadHead

      links?

      "The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie -- deliberate, contrived and dishonest, but the myth, persistent, persuasive, and unrealistic. Belief in myths allows the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -John F. Kennedy

      by basquebob on Fri Jul 26, 2013 at 06:50:01 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Know who did what? (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        poco

        Which long-known, easily-demonstrated statement are you asking me to provide links for?

        Not that I'm going to, I'm just curious about which direction the "Give me links" deflection is going in.

        Art is the handmaid of human good.

        by joe from Lowell on Fri Jul 26, 2013 at 07:06:52 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  You made an accusation, (4+ / 0-)

          prove it. Instead you are turning yourself into rhetorical a pretzel. links? webranding said what when? links?

          "The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie -- deliberate, contrived and dishonest, but the myth, persistent, persuasive, and unrealistic. Belief in myths allows the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -John F. Kennedy

          by basquebob on Fri Jul 26, 2013 at 07:11:50 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Actually, my "accusation" was to ask, "Yours?" (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            poco

            I really don't know what links I'm supposed to look for to "prove" a question.

            Art is the handmaid of human good.

            by joe from Lowell on Fri Jul 26, 2013 at 07:15:45 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  This one: (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              corvo
              Hypocrite, heal thyself.

              My opinion about people who leak classified information to push a political agenda hasn't changed since the Valerie Plame case.

              Yours?

              Oh, wait, I know: that was different, because you like Snowden's agenda, but didn't like Scooter Libby's.

              Please, continue to hold forth on how people who haven't flip-flopped the way you have are the hypocrites.

              Art is the handmaid of human good.

              by joe from Lowell on Fri Jul 26, 2013 at 06:46:33 PM PDT

              People expect links when you act like a fucking asshole right out of the gate.




              Somebody has to do something, and it's just incredibly pathetic that it has to be us. ~ J. Garcia

              by DeadHead on Fri Jul 26, 2013 at 11:19:47 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

          •  BTW, would you like a quick proof of hypocrisy? (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            poco

            How about you responding to webranding's "I assume if Bush did this you wouldn't write the above!" with an uprate, and no insistence on links, while reacting to a similar assumption about a commenter with a request for links?

            That's pretty blatant.

            Art is the handmaid of human good.

            by joe from Lowell on Fri Jul 26, 2013 at 07:20:18 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

    •  how do you feel about governments crimes against (5+ / 0-)

      citizens

    •  One more thing. (7+ / 0-)

      Other than the NSA, a huge bureaucracy that most Americans are not even aware of or were not aware of until recently,  who did Snowden expose? A person, any names? I didn't thinks so. Your accusation is baseless.

      Yes, we criticized Bush's building of an Orwellian security apparatus and this administration deserves every bit of criticism for continuing and expanding that apparatus. How is that hypocritical?

      "The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie -- deliberate, contrived and dishonest, but the myth, persistent, persuasive, and unrealistic. Belief in myths allows the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -John F. Kennedy

      by basquebob on Fri Jul 26, 2013 at 07:00:07 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  You didn't have an earlier thing. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        sviscusi

        This seems to be the first "thing" you've come up with. Your earlier question totally doesn't rise to the level of a thing.

        You say that "most Americans" didn't know about the NSA program. Do you think that "most Americans" knew about Valerie Plame's undercover work?

        You seem to have lost the thread. I accused you of being a hypocrite for your earlier position on the leaking of classified information in the Plame case, not for "Bush's building of an Orwellian security apparatus."

        Art is the handmaid of human good.

        by joe from Lowell on Fri Jul 26, 2013 at 07:13:12 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  You accused me or webranding? (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Barton Funk, joe shikspack, corvo

          You couldn't have accused me because I wasn't the original poster nor was I who you accused of being a hypocrite, but there is the give away to your m.o. What were you saying about "loosing threads"? Any links to any post of mine or webranding on the Plame case? Good night.

          "The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie -- deliberate, contrived and dishonest, but the myth, persistent, persuasive, and unrealistic. Belief in myths allows the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -John F. Kennedy

          by basquebob on Fri Jul 26, 2013 at 07:28:03 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  You are weaving together two threads that are (5+ / 0-)

          have almost zero commonality, and you sound like a lunatic.

          You have had this theory of yours vetted up til now?

          The outing of Valerie Plame had no intended or actual benefit to society.

          The outing of facts about government activities which were suspected but not confirmed nor confirmable and actually LIED about by the people in the NSA you are trying to protect, all because you think that will save face for Obama.

          That you have not sussed the difference is...telling.

          That's Funk, not Fink. Think Guy Fawkes with glide in his stride and pep in his step. Parliament-style. Ka-BOOM! Dude blew my mind.

          by Barton Funk on Fri Jul 26, 2013 at 07:35:55 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  People made similar (0+ / 0-)
        Other than the NSA, a huge bureaucracy that most Americans are not even aware of or were not aware of until recently,  who did Snowden expose?
        arguments about Manning... until some of the documents he released were recovered in a compound in Abbottabad, occupied by the late Osama Bin Laden...

        Then the argument became "but he didn't mean for them to end up in the hands of terrorists..."

        Fear doesn't just breed incomprehension. It also breeds a spiteful, resentful hate of anyone and everyone who is in any way different from you.

        by awesumtenor on Thu Aug 01, 2013 at 10:17:06 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  some of us objected to the bush administration... (8+ / 0-)

      inappropriately using information in order to silence dissenting opinions.  some of us would have been just as irritated if the bush admin had inappropriately used non-classified information (tax returns, health records, etc.) in order to suppress dissenting opinions of people legitimately exercising their first amendment rights.

      some will attempt to argue that snowden is using information to harm the government, but that is an assertion that assumes one has a comprehensive knowledge of snowden's intent.  snowden's statements point to a different intent and the government has not alleged a history of snowden attempting to harm the government or any material asserting that intent.

      i'm part of the 99% - america's largest minority

      by joe shikspack on Fri Jul 26, 2013 at 07:17:57 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  You're dodging the question. (0+ / 0-)

        You really, really don't want to talk about the Valerie Plame case, do you?

        Art is the handmaid of human good.

        by joe from Lowell on Fri Jul 26, 2013 at 07:22:42 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  How is it comparable? (8+ / 0-)

          Snowden leaked information of enormous value to the public, which has sparked a massive debate leading to almost half of Congress voting to end the practice in question.

          Libby leaked to exact revenge on a political enemy of the Bush administration.

          Also, the government commuted Libby's sentence!

        •  Valerie Plame was an agent outed for per (8+ / 0-)

          political malice, of a absolutely no value to the public.

          Snowden gave evidence for secret government activities about which the government has lied and conintues to lie about, such that dozens of organizations have now filed suit.

          So, tell me, what is your lame-ass argument?

          That's Funk, not Fink. Think Guy Fawkes with glide in his stride and pep in his step. Parliament-style. Ka-BOOM! Dude blew my mind.

          by Barton Funk on Fri Jul 26, 2013 at 07:31:08 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  He also (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            sviscusi

            gave out evidence of the government gathering intelligence on foreign countries, which the government didn't lie about because that's what the NSA does.

            He gave out that evidence not because he saw some huge crime against us that needed to come out, but because he doesn't believe we should spy on countries that we are not at war with.

            That skates the edge of whistleblower - if you out something just because you don't like the policy, you aren't protected.

            It might suck that we spy on Russia or China, and we might not think the NSA should do that, but it's not illegal and it's not a violation of our 4th Amendment rights.

            We can applaud Snowden revealing the NSA gathering our data, but he then proceeded to walk the rest of the classified information - stuff the guardian wouldn't print -  from one regime to another.  

            Snowden is not purely "good" and Holder et al are not purely evil.

            We were just high fiving Holder for going after the Texas voting laws.  Now he's a henchman who can't wait to torture Snowden.

            Nothing in between?  

            Change will not come if we wait for some other person or some other time. We are the ones we've been waiting for. We are the change that we seek. Barack Obama

            by delphine on Sat Jul 27, 2013 at 12:36:23 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  i don't mind, if it's germane... (7+ / 0-)

          some of us don't go all wobbly in the knees when somebody says that something is classified, be cause we know that most classified information is inappropriately classified.  further, some of us recognize that some information is classified because disclosure would reveal illegal or improper activity which would be somewhat inconvenient for government officials.

          if someone reveals classified information, i generally have an open mind about whether i should get all excited about it.  why they disclose it is often of far more import than the information itself.

          i'm part of the 99% - america's largest minority

          by joe shikspack on Fri Jul 26, 2013 at 07:35:04 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  But some information is (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            joe shikspack

            classified because it would reveal perfectly legal and proper covert operations, like who we are monitoring in foreign countries.

            Or how the NSA operates.  

            I generally have an open mind as well, but that means I don't automatically assume every leak is heroic or altruistic either.

            Change will not come if we wait for some other person or some other time. We are the ones we've been waiting for. We are the change that we seek. Barack Obama

            by delphine on Sat Jul 27, 2013 at 12:38:34 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

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