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View Diary: NYT Lead: House Dems “Increasingly Unified” As “Momentum Builds Against N.S.A. Surveillance” (295 comments)

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  •  Snowden is neither traitor nor hero (5+ / 0-)

    If some good comes out of his lawbreaking, that doesn't change the fact that the method and agenda (tearing down the government) of his actions were as reckless, narcissistic, and outside the law as were Scooter Libby's.  

    The false binary that we must choose to call Snowden either a hero or a traitor is ridiculous.

    Snowden is a confused Ron Paul worshipping doofus, more a kid than an adult, who wanted to play out a James Bond fantasy.

    The good news is that his actions might actually lead to long overdue reforms of FISA and the Patriot Act.  But that's as much because the "War on Terror" is moldy and antiquated in the public imagination as it is because Snowden/Greenwald "leaked" what we've already known for years.

    But yes, since he started up the conversation again, and real reform might happen, I have to give him credit.

    But he's no hero.  I opposed this reckless agenda-driven lawbreaking when Scooter Libby smeared Valerie Plame, and I'm not going to cheer it now just because it helps advocate for a cause that I believe in.

    There are other ways to make this argument in the public sphere.  If we've been unable to convince Americans until now, the fault lies both with those who advocate against the Patriot Act and the American people themselves.  

    •  You are transparent. Stop FUCKING derailing. (32+ / 0-)

      Mr. Universe is a known degenerate Robotophile, and his sources include former Browncoat Traitors. What is their agenda in leaking top secret information about the Reavers and endangering us all?

      by JesseCW on Mon Jul 29, 2013 at 06:09:29 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  his tune is changing (13+ / 0-)

        Still comparing Snowden to Scooter Libby, but now it's good that we stop doing what one day ago was "perfectly legal, nothing to see here".  Time to go check OFA to see what the new talking point is.  

        Bad things aren't bad! And anyway, there's mitigation!

        by Nada Lemming on Mon Jul 29, 2013 at 08:43:14 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Criticizing some aspects of this sordid affair (6+ / 0-)

        is not "derailing."  He offered a reasoned, measured post about his thoughts on the good that will come from this, and was specifically responding to a post positing that Snowden was some kind of hero.

        The two ideas are not mutually exclusive.  One can appreciate that a discussion is now being had, and wonder whether additional safeguards are necessary and possible, yet still criticize the manner and method by which the leak occurred.  I mean, Rand Paul has been on the stump for weeks about this -- does that mean no one criticize Rand Paul, either?

        •  You're fucking wallowing in a bizarre personal (6+ / 0-)

          fixation on Greenwald while ignoring the topic at hand.

          Winsmith is doing the same.

          Mr. Universe is a known degenerate Robotophile, and his sources include former Browncoat Traitors. What is their agenda in leaking top secret information about the Reavers and endangering us all?

          by JesseCW on Mon Jul 29, 2013 at 09:40:28 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  What??? Did you read his post??? (5+ / 0-)

            Virtually the entirety of his post was dedicated to discussing the good these leaks may produce.  He only responded about Snowden not necessarily being a hero because the poster above made comments about whether Snowden was a hero.   The only thing derailing these discussions are these constant meta posts attacking other posters because they criticize Snowden/Greenwald.  I love it -- the person above says Snowden is somewhere between a patriot and a hero, and THAT gets like 30 upratings.  Someone responds that no, it's not that simple, that maybe he's not a hero, and you fire off these vitriolic screeds about how discussion of Snowden is a "bizarre fixation" and "derailing" the topic.  That just makes no sense.

            Oh, and for the record, (until now) my posts in this diary have not been about Snowden and Greenwald at all, so I have no idea where you're getting that from.

            Now, do you want to talk about the kinds of concrete reforms you'd like to see, or are you going to keep derailing the discussions with these personal attacks?

      •  Yes WinSmith is transparent (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        CroneWit

        and derailing is the mission probably behind the comments. But be nice Jesse. Say rather I SEE YOU and I READ your comment. Now please don't go away mad. Just quietly tip too away please.

        One cannot seriously debate an issue when one side controls access to the facts and is economical with the truth, while at the same time introducing blatant falsehoods into the discussion. - Joe Shikspack

        by glitterscale on Mon Jul 29, 2013 at 09:20:08 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I don't do smarmy and passive agressive. (5+ / 0-)

          I place no value, at all, on "nice".  I consider it the fundamental problem in American politics.

          No evil in our sad history as a nation has ever been ended or even restrained so long as critics continued to be "nice".

          Mr. Universe is a known degenerate Robotophile, and his sources include former Browncoat Traitors. What is their agenda in leaking top secret information about the Reavers and endangering us all?

          by JesseCW on Mon Jul 29, 2013 at 09:42:15 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  I am transparent? (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        emelyn, Reggid, Lying eyes, artmartin

        Because I express my thoughts as a longtime member of Daily Kos who doesn't happen to agree with the Cult of Snowden?

        So what does that mean.  I have an "agenda"?  Am I a paid fascist plant?  Or is that totalitarian, the word so many of you Greenwald fantasists love to use?

        Which is it, bro?  That your outright hatred and personal invective gets 24 recs and zero HRs tells us all we need to know about the Snowden Thought Police on Daily Kos.

        Legitimate dissent?  SCREAM IT DOWN!!!  Its a CONSPIRAMACY!!!!!  O NOOESSSSS!!!

        •  Because you FUCKING DERAIL every goddamned (5+ / 0-)

          diary about NSA Abuse.

          It means you're a bad faith actor who obsessed with Greenwald and Snowden, or a troll seeking only to derail.

          In either case, your fucking derailing.  Diary after diary after diary.

          That is, when you're not just assisting your fucking tag-team buddy Reggid.

          This isn't "dissent".  This smearing people who have dissented.  The two are not on the same fucking planet "bro".

          Every fucking authoritarian bully falls back on the same "Poor picked upon me" crap you're doing right now.  It's like they hand you fuckers a script.

          Mr. Universe is a known degenerate Robotophile, and his sources include former Browncoat Traitors. What is their agenda in leaking top secret information about the Reavers and endangering us all?

          by JesseCW on Mon Jul 29, 2013 at 10:31:12 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  That inane comparison again? (34+ / 0-)

      Outing Valerie Plame was spiteful, malicious act of intimidation with no public value.

      Swowden's was the complete opposite.

      The demonization of him in comparison not demonizing any bankster is a defining characteristic of the WH and its ardent supporters. And its not a flattering one.

      Okay, but how many shits is it worth to you?
      Shop Kos Katalogue

      by Words In Action on Mon Jul 29, 2013 at 06:12:30 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I'm sorry (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      koNko, JesseCW, CroneWit

      Who?

      Touch all that arises with a spirit of compassion. An activist seeks to change opinion.

      by Mindful Nature on Mon Jul 29, 2013 at 07:27:02 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Giving up a comfortable 200K job (9+ / 0-)

      living in Hawaii to expose massive collection of all communication data is "tearing down the government" and "reckless and narcissistic".

      Got it, thanks.

      I will agree that Snowden's actions were illegal, but to compare them with what Scooter Libby did is just wrong.  Libby played a role in exposing an ACTUAL CIA AGENT INVOLVED IN ONGOING INTELLIGENCE GATHERING!!!

      None of Snowden's disclosures did any of that.  Ok, sure, some "terrorst" now know we spy.  If a terrorist was so dumb to not realize that, then they would probably blow themselves up before they threatened anyone else.

      And NOONE would disagree that we shouldn't spy on governments we don't like or people we think may do us harm.  The problem is collecting data on American citizens.  Is it being used for illegal purposes?  Who knows?

      But let me ask you the same thing I asked Bush defenders when his spying programs was disclosed.  I asked them, "ok you trust Bush, but what about Hillary having this same power, you ok with that?"

      Same question:  Let's assume the Administration exercises comprehensive oversight over this to prevent abuse, are you comfortable with the next Cheney Administration having the same access to phone, email, text, google searches of US citizens?

      To the NSA douchebag who is reading this: "Those who give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."

      by Indiana Bob on Mon Jul 29, 2013 at 08:38:25 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  So everyone already knew about this? (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        WinSmith

        If, as you suggest, that everyone, including the "terrorists," already knew about these programs, and knew that we were engaged in this type of activity, then I'm sure what all the hullabaloo is all about.  

        •  Reggid, I am referencing what the MSM (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          CroneWit, LaEscapee

          and the Administration are claiming regarding these leaks, that they harmed national security by telling "the terrorst" that we collect their phone data.  

          I agree that this was known, I am using this as an example of how silly the argument that Snowden=Libby is.

          But my main question, which I will copy/paste, I hope you will answer it and forget about Snowden/Greenwald/Whoever Else:

          But let me ask you the same thing I asked Bush defenders when his spying programs was disclosed.  I asked them, "ok you trust Bush, but what about Hillary having this same power, you ok with that?"

          Same question:  Let's assume the Administration exercises comprehensive oversight over this to prevent abuse, are you comfortable with the next Cheney Administration having the same access to phone, email, text, google searches of US citizens?

          To the NSA douchebag who is reading this: "Those who give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."

          by Indiana Bob on Mon Jul 29, 2013 at 11:10:04 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I understand your reference (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            artmartin

            But if you're claiming that any "terrorists" who didn't know this was happening were incredibly stupid, then how does that comport with all of the shock and surprise expressed here about the "shocking revelations" about these systems?  I mean, if everyone already knew about these capabilities, even "stupid" terrorists, then again, why the sudden hysteria about it over the last couple months?

            As for your question, all we can do is enact as many safeguards as reasonably possibly, and put in place mechanisms to deal with those who violate them.  That's a tradeoff and a level of trust we put in EVERY level of government at some point.  I mean, virtually any government power, including every form of police power, could be abused if someone really wants to and is willing to risk the consequences.  So, we try to limit the potential for abuse and punish the abusers.  I mean, at some level, if you believe in government, there is a trade-off and balancing act that must occur, no?

            •  I appreciate your response (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              LaEscapee

              but I don't agree.

              I mean, at some level, if you believe in government, there is a trade-off and balancing act that must occur, no?
              Here is James Madison in Federalist Papers (51):
              If men were angels, no government would be necessary. If angels were to govern men, neither external nor internal controls on government would be necessary. In framing a government which is to be administered by men over men, the great difficulty lies in this: you must first enable the government to control the governed; and in the next place oblige it to control itself. A dependence on the people is, no doubt, the primary control on the government; but experience has taught mankind the necessity of auxiliary precautions.
              And that is why we have the 4th amendment.  THAT is the "safeguard that was enacted".  Of course any power we give to governments can be taken to a tyrannical level.  The founders of the Constitution were tremendously flawed (slave owners, rich, white elites), but they weren't as bad as the English Monarchist and were enlightened enough to come up with the Bill of Rights.

              That is why I asked the question regarding if we are comfortable with the next Republican asshole to have these tools.  Even if the current Administration is thoroughly self-policing what goes on at the NSA, the next Republican president will not, and further they will use the collection of this data for purely political ends, and that is extremely dangerous.

              Here is John Adams on why we shouldn't trust ANY politician, even ones we like:

              There is danger from all men. The only maxim of a free government ought to be to trust no man living with power to endanger the public liberty.

              To the NSA douchebag who is reading this: "Those who give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."

              by Indiana Bob on Mon Jul 29, 2013 at 03:38:08 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  One more thing (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              LaEscapee

              You said that if everyone already knew about these capabilities then why the sudden histeria.

              I am completely fine with spying on suspected terrorist.  What I am not fine with is collecting ALL communications because that WILL be abused.  Maybe not by the current administration (although there is not way of knowing because of the secrecy), but certainly by a future one.

              To the NSA douchebag who is reading this: "Those who give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."

              by Indiana Bob on Mon Jul 29, 2013 at 03:43:40 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

      •  If it manages to turn this into a discussion (6+ / 0-)

        about "Snowden: Traitor, or just gaping asshole?", then it wins.

        That's all it's here to do.

        Yes, it's easy to tear it's arguments apart and make it look like a clown, but when we do that, it's still wining.

        It's managed, with the help of a sad little sidekick or two, to turn half to two thirds of the comments in all recent diaries about NSA spying into lengthy discussions about Snowden and Greenwald personally.

        In one diary, it made over 50 comments.  Because people kept feeding it, Admin will never see that for the trolling it is.  

        If we don't engage it, and it keeps shitting all over the diary anyway and desperately trying to de-rail, then we may be able to do something about it.

        The one service it has provided so far is that when people HR it, we get to see who the real far right is.  They show up in droves to defend it.

        Mr. Universe is a known degenerate Robotophile, and his sources include former Browncoat Traitors. What is their agenda in leaking top secret information about the Reavers and endangering us all?

        by JesseCW on Mon Jul 29, 2013 at 09:47:03 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Great point! (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      CroneWit

      Going into lifelong hiding due to fear of assassination by the most elite assassins in human history...totally effin' rad James Bond-type dealy!

      I can't believe I've never thought about it this way before!

    •  WinSmith, can I get a response? I ask sincerely (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      CroneWit

      Let us just forget Snowden worshippers/Greenwald Fan Boys/Administration Apologist/ANY OF THAT.  Let's further assume that Bush's was illegal and Obama's is legal.  It is more complicated than that, but let's go with that premise.

      Here they are, can you respond?  If you don't want to, fine, I am asking a favor.

      Let me ask you the same thing I asked Bush defenders when his spying programs was disclosed.  I asked them, "ok you trust Bush, but what about Hillary having this same power, you ok with that?"

      Same question:  Let's assume the Administration exercises comprehensive oversight over this to prevent abuse, are you comfortable with the next Cheney Administration having the same access to phone, email, text, google searches of US citizens?

      To the NSA douchebag who is reading this: "Those who give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."

      by Indiana Bob on Mon Jul 29, 2013 at 11:15:53 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Please don't feed. (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        TheMomCat, PhilJD, CroneWit
        •  Looks like you were right (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Aunt Martha, 4kedtongue

          I guess I was naive enough to think that if I posted a reasonably framed question I would get a reasonably framed response, even if I would have disagreed.

          I have some time on my hands during my vacation, so I have been posting more than usual.  I went back in the comment history and I see what you are referencing.  I will be careful about feeding from now on.

          It is certainly ironic that someone with the screen name "WinSmith" would be defending a policy of mass surveillance and data collection.

          To the NSA douchebag who is reading this: "Those who give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."

          by Indiana Bob on Mon Jul 29, 2013 at 03:52:15 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  He won't respond (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        TheMomCat, CroneWit, chuckvw, 4kedtongue

        He just wants to broadcast the 24/7 Snowden/Greenwald news.

        He has no interest in engaging genuinely.

        Il est dangereux d’avoir raison dans des choses où des hommes accrédités ont tort. - Voltaire
        Don't trust anyone over 84414 - BentLiberal

        by BentLiberal on Mon Jul 29, 2013 at 01:44:27 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

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