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View Diary: CO-Sen: Mark Udall (D), "NSA data collection close to unconstitutional" (45 comments)

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  •  "close to unconstitutional" -- (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    maryabein, Floande, Mr Robert

    what an embarrassment is that Senator from my state.

    Just waiting for him to advocate some cosmetic solution that keeps the "national security" status quo firmly in place.

    Dogs from the street can have all the desirable qualities that one could want from pet dogs. Most adopted stray dogs are usually humble and exceptionally faithful to their owners as if they are grateful for this kindness. -- H.M. Bhumibol Adulyadej

    by corvo on Mon Jul 29, 2013 at 09:17:24 AM PDT

    •  I don't think there was anything embarrassing (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      unfangus

      about what Udall said.  In fact, you should be proud of him,  He's one of the lead Senators on this issue and one of the best on civil liberties:

      http://www.dailykos.com/...

      http://www.dailykos.com/...

      http://www.dailykos.com/...

      Funny Stuff at http://www.funnyordie.com/oresmas

      by poopdogcomedy on Mon Jul 29, 2013 at 09:23:09 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  0.000002 > 0 n/t (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        maryabein, RuralLiberal

        Dogs from the street can have all the desirable qualities that one could want from pet dogs. Most adopted stray dogs are usually humble and exceptionally faithful to their owners as if they are grateful for this kindness. -- H.M. Bhumibol Adulyadej

        by corvo on Mon Jul 29, 2013 at 09:30:09 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  And that is the tragedy (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Floande, corvo, CroneWit, RuralLiberal

        "he is one of the lead Senators on this issue...".  He needs to get a spine and stand in the Senate and tell We, the people what the dogda**med is going on. Until then he is just a cowering water carrier. Sorry, but he needs to put skin in the game.

        •  No I think he's being realistic. I think there's (0+ / 0-)

          enough momentum in congress to curb the NSA's powers and repeal sections of the Patriot Act.  Sorry, but that's the reality.  Again, I'd like to see these laws repealed but if there's a more realistic chance to first scale them back royally, we should not pass up the opportunity.  

          Funny Stuff at http://www.funnyordie.com/oresmas

          by poopdogcomedy on Mon Jul 29, 2013 at 09:38:25 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  "Realism" isn't going to cut it (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Mr Robert, RuralLiberal

            That's what led to FISA in the first place, and look at where that got us. And what's "realistic" today is nowhere near as consequential as what Sen. Church and Rep. Pike were doing back in the day.

            What Edward Snowden did was "unrealistic." Sen. Udall could've pulled a Sen. Gravel move any time he liked and told us what was actually going on, but he did not.

            The 4th Amendment is quite clear. What the NSA is doing is flatly unconstitutional. It is a sad occurrence that Sen. Udall doesn't say so.

            Government and laws are the agreement we all make to secure everyone's freedom.

            by Simplify on Mon Jul 29, 2013 at 11:09:42 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Wow, just wow. (0+ / 0-)

              Funny Stuff at http://www.funnyordie.com/oresmas

              by poopdogcomedy on Mon Jul 29, 2013 at 11:18:16 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  Did you even reading my fucking diary? (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              unfangus

              He said what he was doing, working with Wyden to create a bill to protect Americans' privacy.  He also said what the NSA was doing as an invasion of privacy.  Plus this diarist makes a pretty good point about the 4th Amendment which is why I think the 4th needs to be updated and strengthened:

              http://www.dailykos.com/...  

              Funny Stuff at http://www.funnyordie.com/oresmas

              by poopdogcomedy on Mon Jul 29, 2013 at 11:25:55 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  We'll see if that bill is better than 1978 FISA (0+ / 0-)

                And no, a 5-4 decision from before the Internet that's inapplicable to current circumstances does not make what the NSA is doing constitutional.

                Government and laws are the agreement we all make to secure everyone's freedom.

                by Simplify on Mon Jul 29, 2013 at 12:16:59 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  I'm not saying it's constitutional and I don't (0+ / 0-)

                  think the diarist was making that point either.  The point is to update the amendments to the constitution to better strengthen them for the present and the future.

                  Funny Stuff at http://www.funnyordie.com/oresmas

                  by poopdogcomedy on Mon Jul 29, 2013 at 12:19:17 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

            •  Actually,no (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              poopdogcomedy

              if Sen Udall 'pulled' a Mike Gravel now He'd be indicted for revealing classified information.Only a very few senators are given  even a cursory look at the inner workings of our secret 'intelligence' agencies,and they are not allowed to reveal much of it to their fellow senators ,much less the great unwashed.
              Much has changed since 9/11,the old rules do not apply.Udall and Wyden are doing the most they can to increase congressional oversight in the face of Republican AND administration resistance.No one else is making a stand and they should be supported for their efforts,not attacked.Many of the comments so far reflect an ignorant fantasy of what is possible in todays political reality.

              'The tyranny of the ignoramuses is absolute and inescapable' A.Einstein

              •  THANK YOU!!!!!!! (0+ / 0-)

                Funny Stuff at http://www.funnyordie.com/oresmas

                by poopdogcomedy on Mon Jul 29, 2013 at 12:23:56 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  You're welcome (0+ / 0-)

                  You write a lot of  stuff about our congress critters that is informative but usually non-controversial,apparently today you kicked the hornets nest.While I'd normally characterize myself as one of the flamers,it really amazes me how little some people really know about  political reality and what is actually possible.These well meaning folk who think all you have to do is speak truth to power and wave a magic wand and all is going to be well need to wake the fuck up.Just ask Fiengold and Kucinich and Grayson (glad he's back!) how that works in the real world.People who say they'll vote for Ken Buck because Mark Udall fails their purity test are beneath contempt to me, but realistically not much worse than Colorado voters who condemn him for voting for the despicable cat food commission proposal, even though every  congressional democrat voted the same way - multiple times - even in safe districts represented by psuedo liberals Polis and DeGuette.I think I agree on an emotional level with some of these commenters but politics is 'like revenge',a dish served cold.

                  'The tyranny of the ignoramuses is absolute and inescapable' A.Einstein

              •  Nope (0+ / 0-)
                United States Constitution, Article I, Section 6

                [The Senators and Representatives] shall in all Cases, except Treason, Felony and Breach of the Peace, be privileged from Arrest during their Attendance at the Session of their respective Houses, and in going to and returning from the same; and for any Speech or Debate in either House, they shall not be questioned in any other Place.

                Possible expulsion by fellow members, but not indictment:
                THU JUN 13, 2013
                Congress worried too much is kept secret? Just tell us what it is, already!
                by Simplify

                Government and laws are the agreement we all make to secure everyone's freedom.

                by Simplify on Mon Jul 29, 2013 at 12:30:34 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  you're not paying attention (0+ / 0-)

                  Revealing classified information,especially the most classified information revealed to the Senate intelligence oversight committee,would almost certainly be treason according to almost every segment of society.The senators are not allowed to record or have any records of anything they are briefed on,they are not even allowed to take notes.You and corvo are dumping on Udall (and presumably Wyden) for doing something admirable.Perhaps you should reserve some of your vitriol for the majority of the congress that are either doing nothing or worse dimwits like Saxby Chambliss denying there even is a problem.Your criticism is misdirected and inappropriate

                  'The tyranny of the ignoramuses is absolute and inescapable. A.Einstein

                  •  You're the one taking it personally (0+ / 0-)

                    I'm debating opinion and, apparently, facts. Read the Constitutional passage above again. The speech and debate clause trumps everything else. The "treason" bit applies to being arrested on the floor of Congress, not to anything the Senator says on the floor. That's what the semicolon is for.

                    Sen. Gravel was immune when he revealed "top secret" information, and so would Sen. Udall be. The Constitution has not changed between 1978 and now.

                    Also, both you and the President are wrong that revealing secret, non-troop movement-type information to the public instead of passing it to directly to North Korea is treason. Especially if the information is about government lawbreaking and abuses of power. If that's the case, patriotism is treason.

                    Government and laws are the agreement we all make to secure everyone's freedom.

                    by Simplify on Mon Jul 29, 2013 at 01:13:54 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  I retract the title of the above comment. (0+ / 0-)

                      The rest stands.

                      Government and laws are the agreement we all make to secure everyone's freedom.

                      by Simplify on Mon Jul 29, 2013 at 01:36:15 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                    •  constitution hasn't changed? (0+ / 0-)

                      clearly between the Patriot act and the Roberts court,something has changed.
                      Daniel Ellsburg was released on bail.
                      Manning has been incarcerated under conditions many consider torture,Assange is holed up in the Ecuadorian embassy in London and Snowden has been stuck in the Moscow airport for a month-don't see a difference there?
                      I never said what you claim the President and I agree to be treason-don't put words in my mouth.
                      Although it is quite clear to me that this administration will very seriously prosecute acts of patriotism  that expose its immorality and criminality as treason.If you think Sens. Udall and Wyden can reveal state secrets of the highest order without the gravest retribution,you are mistaken (to be kind).
                      To compare that act to revealing the Pentagon papers 35 years ago is disingenuous,naive,and presents a false equivalency of mammoth proportions.

                      'The tyranny of the ignoramuses is absolute and inescapable' A.Einstein

                      •  Officials' lies are what I'm trying to take apart, (0+ / 0-)

                        and I want more people to take ideas and evidence to their logical conclusions.

                        I appreciate that what Sen. Udall is doing on this issue is significant a net positive. That said, his "close to unconstitutional" bit is bullshit, and therefore I'm going to call him on it.

                        Go ahead and say what "gravest retribution" means. Threats to his reputation, his financial status, his person, even his family, issued on behalf of people in the intelligence community? It's possible. If Sen. Udall really believes his fellow Senators would punish him for revealing secret government abuses of power, as Sen. Wyden hinted when he said the Senate rules were holding him back, then I suppose Sen. Udall would be telling the truth. If instead he fears backchannel threats, I wish he'd tell us. Or, he can keep dancing along with the rest of 'em, and we'll get ineffectual "reform."

                        It's easy for me to say, but more people than Snowden are going to have to knowingly risk themselves before we come close to dismantling the surveillance state. Not dismantling it is likely but too awful for me to accept.

                        Government and laws are the agreement we all make to secure everyone's freedom.

                        by Simplify on Tue Jul 30, 2013 at 01:14:23 AM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                      •  Assange's hiding in the embassy (0+ / 0-)

                        ... is to avoid having to stand trial for rape of a Wikileaks fan in Sweden.

      •  oh, and a lot of us remember (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        CroneWit

        Udall's sudden transformation from "progressive" (when he was Representative from Boulder) to MOR when running for the statewide Senate seat.  He's more than proficient in compromising whatever ideals he actually has.

        Remember: He's a politician.  You can't trust a politician any farther than you can thrown him.

        Dogs from the street can have all the desirable qualities that one could want from pet dogs. Most adopted stray dogs are usually humble and exceptionally faithful to their owners as if they are grateful for this kindness. -- H.M. Bhumibol Adulyadej

        by corvo on Mon Jul 29, 2013 at 09:54:11 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Yeah, but he's now representing the entire state, (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          unfangus

          not just Boulder.  That's what politicians do when they move to a higher office, for better or worse.  His track record on civil liberties makes me trust him but of course I am also cautious with my support.  

          Funny Stuff at http://www.funnyordie.com/oresmas

          by poopdogcomedy on Mon Jul 29, 2013 at 09:56:37 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Never trust a politician. (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            CroneWit, RuralLiberal

            Never.

            Sometimes you can push a politician to do what you want, but the minute you trust him, he's won.  And you've lost.

            Dogs from the street can have all the desirable qualities that one could want from pet dogs. Most adopted stray dogs are usually humble and exceptionally faithful to their owners as if they are grateful for this kindness. -- H.M. Bhumibol Adulyadej

            by corvo on Mon Jul 29, 2013 at 09:59:44 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Oh so Bernie Sanders, Jeff Merkley & Elizabeth (0+ / 0-)

              Warren can't be trusted either, huh?  They're as big of rat fucks as Udall I take it?

              Funny Stuff at http://www.funnyordie.com/oresmas

              by poopdogcomedy on Mon Jul 29, 2013 at 10:03:49 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Well, if you say so. (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                RuralLiberal

                Myself, I believe that the minute we all get starry-eyed about those three, we stop noticing those areas in which, well, they really are no better than the others -- Middle Eastern policy matters, for instance.

                YMMV.

                Dogs from the street can have all the desirable qualities that one could want from pet dogs. Most adopted stray dogs are usually humble and exceptionally faithful to their owners as if they are grateful for this kindness. -- H.M. Bhumibol Adulyadej

                by corvo on Mon Jul 29, 2013 at 11:14:42 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

          •  asdf (0+ / 0-)
            Yeah, but he's now representing the entire state, (0+ / 0-)

            not just Boulder.

            My point exactly.  

            Dogs from the street can have all the desirable qualities that one could want from pet dogs. Most adopted stray dogs are usually humble and exceptionally faithful to their owners as if they are grateful for this kindness. -- H.M. Bhumibol Adulyadej

            by corvo on Mon Jul 29, 2013 at 10:00:38 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Hey, your state elects clowns like Tom Tancredo & (0+ / 0-)

              came close to electing Ken Buck.  Just remember that.

              Funny Stuff at http://www.funnyordie.com/oresmas

              by poopdogcomedy on Mon Jul 29, 2013 at 10:02:40 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  I live in Ken Buck's part of the state. (0+ / 0-)

                I know it all very well.

                Just don't come crying to me when Udall decides that his real constituency is "the good of the American people" -- and throws his weight behind a purely cosmetic "reform" of the security apparatus and its practices.

                Dogs from the street can have all the desirable qualities that one could want from pet dogs. Most adopted stray dogs are usually humble and exceptionally faithful to their owners as if they are grateful for this kindness. -- H.M. Bhumibol Adulyadej

                by corvo on Mon Jul 29, 2013 at 11:16:02 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

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