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  •  The codified oral tradition (0+ / 0-)

    IS the gospels, the acts of the disciples and the letters of Paul.  The early catholic church then manipulated the texts they chose, banned the texts that didn't fit their ideas and suppressed other gospels and other christian sects to the point of extinction. Are you saying that Judaism never kicked out a batch of writings for not fitting the overall view?

    It is pretty obvious to me that Yahweh is a deity who did NOT send a son down for the purposes of salvation, and the christian god DID send a son down for that purpose. So I would say those are two different gods, or possibly a god who got tired of one group of followers and decided to create another.

    If your perception of god comes through your personal relationship with him, why do you need the texts?

    •  ... no, the gospels et al are WRITTEN tradition. (1+ / 0-)
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      An oral tradition would be commentary on those writings.

      That's an interesting way of describing the difference between the Jewish god and the Christian god.  I may borrow that.

      You misunderstand me; I'm talking about a collective relationship (God - Humanity), not an individual one (God - Me).  The Christian Bible, as I understand it, declares that God's general behavior toward humanity undergoes a fundamental change with the sending of Jesus.

      •  Yes, I would agree that God's behavior (0+ / 0-)

        towards humanity did change. You guys must have really pissed him off!  :)

        I would consider all the dogma of the Christian church the "oral commentary" (or interpretation or explanation) of the original texts. That is the best I can do on that. The dogma was formulated over hundreds of years of argument between bishops of the various churches of the Roman Catholic system.  They had a doozy of a fight over the nature of salvation and the resurrection and another one over the trinity idea.  Some people ended up banished or excommunicated or diappeared.

        I have read extensively on the history of Christianity, which is actually the history of the catholic church up until the Reformation.  It's not a pretty story.

        •  Oh man, did we ever. (0+ / 0-)

          The entire history of my people is one of repeatedly pissing God off.  Of course, that's also arguably the entire history of humanity.

          (And also of course -- and this is probably not telling you anything you don't already know -- the argument that the Jews pissed God off and thus caused Him to un-Choose us, as it were, was used as the basis for centuries of persecution.  Obviously we were fair game if God didn't love us anymore.)

          I guess the dogma does make a pretty good parallel to the oral tradition, now that you mention it.  Although I think one major difference is that most commentary on the Tanakh is given in the name of the rabbis/scholars who first wrote them down, and that multiple disagreeing opinions were all preserved.  (Though there may have been some disagreeing opinions that were considered too heretical to be worth saving.)

          •  Well there is a difference there. (0+ / 0-)

            Any information that we have about the churches in the outlying areas that disagreed with Rome was only preserved by accident, as the church went about not only destroying all that (or some of it may be in the Vatican vaults), but also all the pagan written histories, including the act of burning down the whole library in Alexandria and taking over every pagan shrine they could find.

            •  oh god, the library at Alexandria. MY HEART. (0+ / 0-)

              I have a dream that in some long-distant future time, they will open the Vatican vaults and make its contents public knowledge.

              Sadly, if that ever happens it'll probably be because civilization has completely collapsed and re-risen in the interim, and the people opening it will be archaeologists trying to find out more about the Times Before.

              •  Well if you follow my comments on the (0+ / 0-)

                Catholic Church, you would see that I'm working so hard to get people to realize how immoral and corrupt that institution is and how the world really needs to finally take a stand against it.  


                Betty Clermont writes great diaries on this issue.

                I don't know if the Vatican has anything that might have been looted from the library after they made sure it burned. They really wanted all records of pagan beliefs destroyed, probably because it would prove that the story of Jesus was totally lifted from the pagan gods stories.

                What I have read that they DO have is a lot of the loot and art from the pagan shrines. They actually had the nerve to use a portrait of Isis and baby Horus and retitled it Mary and baby Jesus. Halos and all.

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