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View Diary: First TV ads hit in Colorado recall, financed by extreme 'gun rights guru' (143 comments)

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  •  Oh sure. If there is anybody libertarians admire (0+ / 0-)

    it's FDR.
    (My screen name is a play on FDR's name)

    Sorry Lilith, surprisingly enough there are Democrats, progressives, liberals & leftists who don't think that innocent people losing their liberties is an appropriate response to the crimes of murderers.

    Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither.

    by FrankRose on Thu Aug 01, 2013 at 05:57:19 AM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  Don't worry Frank, no one mistakes you for FDR (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      DefendOurConstitution

      and any high schooler can get the reference.

      "They did not succeed in taking away our voice" - Angelique Kidjo - Opening the Lightning In a Bottle concert at Radio City Music Hall in New York City - 2003

      by LilithGardener on Thu Aug 01, 2013 at 08:04:16 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Frank - read this, it's OK to be a gun lover AND (2+ / 0-)

      support background checks:

      However, there is another side to guns that thrives outside of my Rockwell painting. There are guns in the hands of criminals, terrorists and the mentally ill. Gun-aided mayhem and murder are the malignant side of gun ownership, and I long ago emerged from that romantic painting to recognize that we have a serious problem with gun violence in America.

      There was a time in this country when even leading voices in the National Rifle Association called for laws to keep dangerous people from purchasing guns. Federal legislation was passed in 1993 that mandated a federal background check that kicks in when a gun is purchased through a licensed dealer. Unfortunately, unless a state steps in to fill the void, no background check is done for guns purchased from a private seller at a gun show or via the Internet. That loophole makes no more sense than endangering public safety by eliminating the vision test for some driver’s license applicants.

      http://helenair.com/...
      •  It's not OK to support background checks AND (0+ / 0-)

        gun bans.
        Someone should have informed the President prior to his introduction of both together.

        It's not OK to introduce background checks AND mag restrictions.
        Someone should have informed Morse & Giron

        If Obama had introduced the background check that was voted upon without pushing for the AWB, I think it would have passed & the political fallout would have been minimal.

        But it's a tough case to insist that one doesn't want to ban guns while pushing for a gun ban.......particularly when the gun ban is proposed to the Senate by a Senator that has publicly stated that she wants to confiscate all guns.

        Could you get background checks? Absolutely.
        But not this election cycle nor with this Pres.
        That ship sailed when the AWB was proposed.

        Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither.

        by FrankRose on Thu Aug 01, 2013 at 10:02:29 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Fair enough. But it sure moved the Overton Window, (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          LilithGardener

          do you think the AWB getting sacrificed allows background checks to look like entirely reasonable policy and those who oppose like fringe extremists? Me, too.

          My take is that post Aurora and Sandy Hook just about everyone thought things must change.

          AWB is on the left

          BC in the middle

          Nothing on the right

          Clip restrictions are in the middle or between the left and the middle. We will find out in about 6 weeks.

          Believe it or not, many gun owners think clips should be restricted. I personally think clip restrictions are more important than banning guns.

          •  "look entirely reasonable" (0+ / 0-)

            No.
            That is why it is gun controllers being subjected to unprecedented recall elections & not those that voted against background checks.

            That is why the NRA grew by a million new members, while MAIG has less than 1000.

            "we will find out in 6 weeks"
            No. We have already found out.
            The 1st two recall elections in Colorado's 137 yr history has already established this.

            Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither.

            by FrankRose on Thu Aug 01, 2013 at 10:32:56 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  You know the M stands for Mayor, right? nt (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              We Shall Overcome

              "They did not succeed in taking away our voice" - Angelique Kidjo - Opening the Lightning In a Bottle concert at Radio City Music Hall in New York City - 2003

              by LilithGardener on Thu Aug 01, 2013 at 10:46:22 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Yes. I see your point; Have it your way.... (0+ / 0-)

                How much has any gun control group grown since the Pres proposed the AWB?

                Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither.

                by FrankRose on Thu Aug 01, 2013 at 11:01:48 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  It has nothing to do with "my way" or "your way" (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  coquiero

                  Facts in evidence:

                  Imperfect gun reforms failed in Congress.

                  Thousands of state, local, and federal gun laws have been challenged and are percolating up to SCOTUS. The supremes have already declined to review 60 cases that have made up that far. The vast majority of long standing state and local laws are being upheld at the district, state, and appeals court level.

                  Eventually we will get some clarity about which regulations are constitutional and on which grounds. For the time being all the action is at the state level.

                  There are a growing number of legal opinions articulating the boundaries of the legitimate right and duty of state and local government to balance expression of the RKBA with the rights of all the residents (armed and unarmed) to go about their lives in public without having a gun shoved in their face.

                  "They did not succeed in taking away our voice" - Angelique Kidjo - Opening the Lightning In a Bottle concert at Radio City Music Hall in New York City - 2003

                  by LilithGardener on Thu Aug 01, 2013 at 11:12:28 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Where did this comment come from? (0+ / 0-)

                    There is nothing in this comment thread pertaining to constitutionality.
                    This thread is about support & electoral consequences.

                    "rights of all the residents to go about their lives in public without having a gun shoved in their faces"
                    You're in luck.
                    Everyone already has that right.

                    Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither.

                    by FrankRose on Thu Aug 01, 2013 at 11:22:22 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

            •  Frank, why can't you just wait until the recall (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              LilithGardener

              results are known before you ejaculate all over yourself in glee.

              Talk to us in 6 weeks. Or change your handle to "Wayne La Pierre's Mini-me"

              •  Why 6 weeks? (0+ / 0-)

                Unprecedented reactions have already occurred.
                Two of them in Colorado alone.

                Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither.

                by FrankRose on Thu Aug 01, 2013 at 11:03:11 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Unprecedented erections, uh, I mean reactions, yes (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  LilithGardener

                  it does seem that way.

                •  Check out this reaction - Liberal PACS hauling it (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  LilithGardener

                  in compared to conservative, and who's leading the pack?

                  Leading the pack in 2013 is the gun control group Americans for Responsible Solutions PAC, which was launched by former Rep. Gabby Giffords (D-AZ) and her husband Mark Kelly. Americans for Responsible Solutions raised more than $6.6 million between January and the end of June. Meanwhile, American Crossroads, the Karl Rove-linked outside spending giant of recent years, raised just $1.9 million.
                  http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/...

                  Where is the all that outrage money from the pro-gun supporters that's supposed to doom the Dems in 2014?

                  Guess that's a bunch of hooey.

                  •  You mean other than the membership dues (0+ / 0-)

                    of the 1,000,000 new members of the NRA?

                    At their $35/year membership rate that equals out to $35,000,000.

                    That alone is 5 times Gabby's group.

                    That said; it isn't the money that is your problem:
                    After all, as Kos said in a diary-Bloomberg alone has dropped more cash into elections than the NRA has.

                    Colbert-Busch spent 4 times what Sanford did. Still wasn't enough.

                    The NRA only contributed $985 to the recall petition of Morse.

                    Both Giron & Morse has far more money than those in favor of a recall. Still they are the first 2 Colorado legislators to face a recall in history.

                    You really have no idea what this nonsense has done.
                    Don't worry. You are finding out.

                    Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither.

                    by FrankRose on Thu Aug 01, 2013 at 11:57:55 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Really? You haven't figured out that the NRA (2+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      LilithGardener, coquiero

                      fudges its numbers? I think if you visit their website or watch their TV programing, they consider you a member.

                      And, sorry, $985 from the NRA sounds good and I can understand why you would want to paint that distorted picture, but again, you really buy that? And what about the Rocky Mountain Gun Owners? Gun Owners of American and the 200 other gun groups in the U.S. and outside Colorado that are probably funding the recall?

                      What about the head of the Calif. Prop 8 campaign who the Kochs have parachuted in to run the recalls? They are spending a ton on this and they are panicked.

                      Colbert-Busch was competitive in a district that's a GOP stronghold. And guns weren't the factor in that election - I understand you need to grasp at straws in order to keep your narrative going. Getting a Dem message across in a GOP stronghold is victory enough. And, nothing was LOST. A lot of that money was celebrity money. That's a rather weak example, you have to admit.

                      Then there's the confirmation of the head of the ATF - the NRA and gun lobby backed down from that fight. That's what happens when you stand up to them these days.

                      I'm actually breathing a sigh of relief after reading your post. If you are representative of the folks who are trying to recall Morse & Giron, then we've got less to worry about.

                      You're mostly bluff and bluster than a real groundswell/backlash.

                      •  The Denver Post reported the NRA's contribution of (0+ / 0-)

                        $985

                        Never mind that you are contradicting their cited number:
                        There has been first two successful recalls in Colorado history.
                        Why do you think (with no evidence) the NRA would hide their involvement in the first two successful recall petitions in history?
                        Keep in mind that the NRA has 56% support vs 30% oppose in Colorado. Source: Denver Post

                        Do you think the NRA is minimizing their involvement because of modesty?
                        Your unsubstantiated theory doesn't make sense.

                        "you're mostly bluff and bluster"
                        And facts. And links. And basic Colorado history. And common knowledge.
                        But I will try to follow your example & add nonsense conspiracy theories based on......whatever the hell you base your absurd  insinuations on.

                        Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither.

                        by FrankRose on Thu Aug 01, 2013 at 02:09:43 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  Two words: Citizens United. (1+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          LilithGardener
                          •  And Morse has benefitted from Citizens United (0+ / 0-)

                            more than those calling for his recall has.

                            He's still going down in history as the 1st recalled legislator in CO history.
                            But, at least you made sure that he has company.
                            Very kind of you.

                            Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither.

                            by FrankRose on Thu Aug 01, 2013 at 05:46:34 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                        •  ... a few more words, the NRA is not advertising (0+ / 0-)

                          it because they are afraid they might lose - and if they do, it will be HUGE news and the curtain is drawn back on them to reveal just how weak they really are.

                          •  Oh sure, orchestrating the first two recalls in (0+ / 0-)

                            the 137 year history would just ruin the NRA.
                            How much weaker could they possibly appear than accomplishing that, amirite?

                            Great argument.
                            Really.

                            Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither.

                            by FrankRose on Thu Aug 01, 2013 at 05:32:30 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Frank, man, you've got a hard head - this is how (0+ / 0-)

                            elections work:

                            1. Ballots are printed, campaigns are waged
                            2. Votes are cast and counted
                            3. A winner is declared

                            For the last friggin' time - you won't know the results of the vote until Step 3 is completed. We are at Step 1 now. Try to be patient.

                            If the winners are Morse & Giron, or I'd wager just Morse or Giron - the NRA loses, BIG.

                          •  This is how history works: (0+ / 0-)

                            There has never been a single successful recall petition in the entirety of Colorado's 137 year history.

                            The unprecedented just happened.....and then it happened again.

                            And somehow, you think the NRA is hiding its funding to these unheard of accomplishments, because it would show the NRA to be weak....

                            I honestly can't get enough of this particular theory.
                            Please, do continue.

                            Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither.

                            by FrankRose on Thu Aug 01, 2013 at 05:58:21 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  They barely got on the ballot - you'd think with (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Glen The Plumber

                            all the unprecedented outrage we keep hearing about, they'd have twice or three times the number of sigs to get the recall moving.

                            But no, instead they had to forge signatures, include dead people and people outside the district, AND enlist the executives of a major local newspaper to help them wage a media war against against Giron.

                            The NRA doesn't want to be associate with that because it stinks to high heaven. They doubly don't want to be associated with it, because if they lose, their bubble has burst - ie, ding, dong the witch is dead.

                            Otherwise, why aren't they trumpeting this so called "unprecedented, historical" event of major consequence?

                          •  "[The NRA] doesn't want to be associated with it" (0+ / 0-)

                            Well sure; what could be worse than forcing the first....and second recalls in CO history?

                            Boy, Morse & Giron has got 'em right where they want 'em!
                            What could be more embarrassing than succeeding ar the first...and second recalls in 137 years of CO history, amirite?
                            (Hint: being recalled).

                            Great plan.

                            Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither.

                            by FrankRose on Fri Aug 02, 2013 at 05:57:52 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Frank, your a gun lobby troll, no two ways about (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            coquiero

                            it, you can't possibly keep repeating yourself and think you're making a real point.

                            It's that, or you're drunk, because you seem to have a hard time grasping the point of this thread - yes, the NRA does not want to be associated with it because a) the way in which the recall was initiated, ie, signatures from dead people, people outside the district, forgeries, et al, and b) if they lose (and there's a good chance they do) they want to be as far from being seen as supporting the recall as possible, because then they'd have to own it, loudly and proudly.

                          •  Don't feed the trolls (0+ / 0-)

                            It only encourages them.

                            Seriously, WSO, Frank will have absolutely no purpose on this site if people ignore him in gun diaries.  It's the only thing he does here.

                            If we starve the troll, he will leave.

                            Think about it.

                            I blog about my daughter with autism at her website

                            by coquiero on Fri Aug 02, 2013 at 07:40:53 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Then start ignoring me. (0+ / 0-)

                            Any day now.......

                            Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither.

                            by FrankRose on Fri Aug 02, 2013 at 07:50:19 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I would prefer it if everyone started ignoring you (0+ / 0-)

                            and am encouraging them to do so.

                            I blog about my daughter with autism at her website

                            by coquiero on Fri Aug 02, 2013 at 10:18:56 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Knock yourself out. (0+ / 0-)

                            Glad to see that I made such an impression on you.

                            Run along now.

                            Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither.

                            by FrankRose on Fri Aug 02, 2013 at 07:38:35 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I have provided evidence, citations and links (0+ / 0-)

                            You have provided conspiracy theories, clairvoyance & opinion-barf.

                            "the way in which the recall was initiated"
                            You mean successfully, legally & unprecedentedly?

                            "if they lose"
                            These are the first successful recall petitions in the history of CO.
                            You've already lost. You demonstrated what happens when you take liberties from innocent Americans.
                            You will notice that it is gun controllers that are subject to recalls & not vice versa

                            Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither.

                            by FrankRose on Fri Aug 02, 2013 at 07:48:52 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Dude, get a new script, this one bores me. Can' (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            coquiero

                            Americans for Prosperity do any better?

                          •  I assume you're all for selling guns to minors? (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Glen The Plumber

                            Freedom for 18-21 year olds to buy guns, right? Don't want to take liberties away from innocent Americans:

                            In a Monday court filing, the National Rifle Association asked the U.S. Supreme Court to strike down a 1968 law that prevents licensed gun dealers from selling handguns to people between the ages of 18 and 21.

                            The NRA, along with two nineteen-year-olds, aims to overturn the federal law that restricts the sale of handguns and ammo to anyone under 21 years of age. While individuals between the ages of 18 and 21 cannot obtain a handgun from a licensed dealer per the law, they can still obtain a gun through other channels. The law also does not prevent individuals between 18 and 21 from obtaining shotguns and rifles.

                            http://www.huffingtonpost.com/...
                      •  'Colbert-Busch' (0+ / 0-)

                        If you think that losing 18 points of support in two weeks is an example of being 'competitive' then you are going to see a lot of 'competition'.

                        In 2008 the Democratic candidate got within 4 points because the GOP candidate received a fine.
                        A fine.
                        Not arrested during the campaign. Not abandoned by his own party. Not outspent 4-1. Not committing adultery with state funds. Not down by 9 points 2 weeks before the election.
                        A fine.

                        That's some 'big winner' you have there.

                        Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither.

                        by FrankRose on Thu Aug 01, 2013 at 02:18:21 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  Yeah, Frank, and it's all due to guns - where's (1+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          LilithGardener

                          your links and sources on that one?

                          •  Her support of your 'big-winner' was unable to (0+ / 0-)

                            keep C-B from losing 18 points in 2 weeks.....after the election was made national.
                            The gun debate was front & center on the national stage at the time.

                            Your 'big-winner' did anything but.

                             Clearly the first two recall elections in Colorado history & C-B losing 18 points in 2 weeks to the worst candidate possible has (somehow) convinced you that gun control is a big winner.
                            So be it.

                            You can own the results of 2014, just like you can own SC & the recall elections.

                            What do you have to worry about?
                            You should be psyched.

                            Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither.

                            by FrankRose on Thu Aug 01, 2013 at 05:40:24 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

            •  Lost souls can't always find their way home (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              coquiero
              Here's your ride, Frank. Don't worry I already paid your fare and tipped the driver.

              "They did not succeed in taking away our voice" - Angelique Kidjo - Opening the Lightning In a Bottle concert at Radio City Music Hall in New York City - 2003

              by LilithGardener on Thu Aug 01, 2013 at 11:03:41 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

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