Skip to main content

View Diary: Dream Defenders, Day 16: When "soft on crime" kills (49 comments)

Comment Preferences

  •  "Those who stood, those who fell: fatal cases" (7+ / 0-)

    Please look at the database of SYG cases at The Tampa Bay Times, to see the circumstances behind who gets away with a killing, and who doesn't.

    Florida's Stand Your Grown Law: Those who stood, those who fell: fatal cases

    "They did not succeed in taking away our voice" - Angelique Kidjo - Opening the Lightning In a Bottle concert at Radio City Music Hall in New York City - 2003

    by LilithGardener on Wed Jul 31, 2013 at 01:54:01 PM PDT

    •  good link that shows this is a very complicated (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      johnny wurster

      issue and not some license yo murder as I have seen written here  this link

      http://www.tampabay.com/...

      enables you to drill down and see the specifics of the cases from the accused and from the victims end even to the race of the people involved....

      In the category of black syg against white, it looks like out of 9 cases, 4 were either not charged or granted immunity, and a few are still pending.

      That looks like a fairly even application of the law to me.....

      reading through the cases, those who were not defending themselves were usually convicted while those who were were freed....exactly what the law was intended to do.

      We also have a version of this law in az.nd even Constitutional Carry yet our gun crime is down too just like everywhere....

      Castle and SYG laws work to protect the innocent in the great majority of cases.   All laws miss some violators but our entire justice system is based on the principle that tis better for 10 guilty men to go free than to jail a single innocent.....A system I like and agree wholeheartedly with.....

      Vaya con Dios Don Alejo
      I want to die a slave to principles. Not to men.
      Emiliano Zapata

      by buddabelly on Wed Jul 31, 2013 at 02:56:36 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Interesting (4+ / 0-)

        in that you provided the same link as LilithGardener, but with so much more preachy defense of the law.

        Hermits have no peer pressure. -- Steven Wright
        Support Small Business: Shop Kos Katalogue

        by tytalus on Wed Jul 31, 2013 at 03:08:33 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  It's preachy because it doesn't agree with your (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          johnny wurster

          position.

          I just happen to think that you are wrong and syg laws are a net benefit to the states that have them.

          just like I think that everyone capable of it, both mentally and physically, should carry while those who aren't should not.   I have watched as gun laws have been liberalized all across the country while at the same time violent crime rates have fallen like a stone.  

          I don't think that liberal carry laws are the reason or at least the whole reason, I think they do play a small part as does the removal of lead from gasoline and paint (major effect imo), reduction of FAS through better prenatal knowledge and care and hopefully better nutrition and parenting with the help of programs like WIC and Head Start.

          I'm a liberal, I believe in solving the underlying causes of violence, not restricting the weapon that is used in a violent encounter.  Pay people a decent wage, teach our children well,  repair the safety net, and end the damn drug war....those four things would end more violence than any other options imo.

          Vaya con Dios Don Alejo
          I want to die a slave to principles. Not to men.
          Emiliano Zapata

          by buddabelly on Thu Aug 01, 2013 at 02:48:40 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Your 'net benefit' (3+ / 0-)

            calculates folks like Trayvon Martin as an acceptable loss, and while I'm sure you wish you could tie loose gun laws to less gun violence, that's the piece of data you have yet to supply.

            Hermits have no peer pressure. -- Steven Wright
            Support Small Business: Shop Kos Katalogue

            by tytalus on Thu Aug 01, 2013 at 07:15:49 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  while there is correlation on all the items I (0+ / 0-)

              mentioned, there's no proof of causation though the removal of aerosol lead is pretty close imo.

              One thing that I can say with a fair degree of certainty is that more guns in circulation does not lead to an increase in shootings....the stats do show that much.

              Personally I don't see us ever finding direct causation for anything as violence is such a varied and diverse problem with differing causes for every case.......We might get it narrowed to a few items but to get to a single source would require ignoring so many other possibilities.

              I still think the closest to a cure we will ever get is to fix as many of the underlying causes as we can using a liberal philosophy....Thus my support for ending the drug war, a decent wage for a days work,  good schooling, and repairing and expanding the safety net for those who need it....usually through no fault of their own...

              Yes unfortunately anything has a cost benefit analysis with it.   On the whole, even using the lowest estimates out there of defensive gun uses, there are 3 times as many defensive uses as there are people killed by firearms and if you remove suicide which imo you have to to get a realistic idea of the situation, it's 6 times.   If you include all gunshot wounds too, not just those killed the numbers are about even. Again that's with the absolute lowest number out there.....some surveys show considerably higher numbers of DGU's and I generally believe those in the middle ground but when even the lowest estimate shows that kind of ratio, I think it's fairly conclusive that there are more defensive uses than attacks.

              This link is to a website called No Nonsense Self Defense and it is a very good, very realistic, no nonsense look at what will happen in a self defense situation and why too many think they are defending when it's really a case of mutual combat...It's a large site with all kinds of good well sourced info for anyone.  It's about the farthest you can get from what some of these keyboard commandos claim to call and sometimes teach as "realistic" self defense and the site owners and I have the same philosophy.  My pistol is an absolute last resort after I have tried everything else including running the hell away, well hobbling away in my case....

              I and most others who carry do our damnedest to avoid any type of confrontation let alone one that might turn physical.  The absolute last thing I want is to have to use my pistol on anything but paper or steel.  However, once in a while there is no avoiding a conflict and sometimes de-escalation just doesn't work.  

              Take a link cruise through the site, I think you will enjoy it and it will give you a good idea of how many people who carry actually think and act/react...... much closer to reality than many out there.

               

              Vaya con Dios Don Alejo
              I want to die a slave to principles. Not to men.
              Emiliano Zapata

              by buddabelly on Thu Aug 01, 2013 at 04:17:52 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

      •  I don't believe you; it's so that white man (3+ / 0-)

        Can kill a n***er. That's what the GZ trial says to me. Better kill the other person who might be a witness against, you but if you're black; you must be a criminal & deserved to die.

        nosotros no somos estúpidos

        by a2nite on Wed Jul 31, 2013 at 03:42:17 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I am in the Az borderlands, if I ever have to use (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          johnny wurster

          a firearm in self defense, the odds are very good I will be shooting at a white methhead and vanishingly small that any attacker would be black....not much higher for hispanic though they are at least 60% of my neighbors and fellow community members.   Hell white methheads commit about 80% of the crime in my area and closer to 90% of the burglaries and violent crimes...tweakers suck ain't just an expression and it sure isn't a sign of affection to be called a tweaker.  

          One thing we have very little of here is face to face close and personal robberies and muggings like many cities.  A mugging or purse snatching is usually so rare they actually make the nightly news....lots of stolen cars though, tweakers need something to stay busy.

          Yet syg and castle laws are both in effect here too...Hell we even have so called Constitutional Carry with no license at all required to carry either open or concealed. You just have to not be a  prohibited possessor.

          and yes I think Marissa Alexander got screwed but I wish she had just shot her abuser instead of a warning shot,  that's basic gun law and self defense,  if the situation is bad enough to need to shoot, then you shoot to stop the aggressor, if it wasn't bad enough to actually shoot the attacker, it wasn't bad enough to pull the trigger. She deserved a slap on the wrist and was screwed by mandatory sentencing.

          Vaya con Dios Don Alejo
          I want to die a slave to principles. Not to men.
          Emiliano Zapata

          by buddabelly on Thu Aug 01, 2013 at 02:29:32 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  Circular reasoning (6+ / 0-)

        It goes like this:

        There is a shooting. At first glance, the shooting looks like it might have been justified.

        On that basis, the SYG law prohibits the police from doing a thorough investigation.

        The evidence in the case is spotty and of variable quality. E.g. George Zimmerman had just killed someone, but no toxicology tests were performed.

        GZ claimed he was violently attacked, with severe blows to the head, but because GZ was presumed justified and there was no investigation of readily available data, he didn't have to show any x-ray that his bruised nose and bloody lip. There's just that picture, whcih could easily have been GZ hitting himself with his own gun recoil.

        So, after a public outcry, with limited evidence the prosecution presents a an unpersuasive case at trial.

        Jurors would have been hung, except for SYG instructions in the jury instructions.

        See how easy it is to complete the circle.

        The NYPD has versions of that logic is their stop and frisk policy. If we stop and frisk way more black youth than white youth the crime data will show that black youths commit the majority of petty crimes, and carry the majority of guns.

        Of course, if the opposite were grue, that the majority of stops were of white men in suits, it would be relatively easy to see who carries the most illegal guns and who does the most cocaine.

        "They did not succeed in taking away our voice" - Angelique Kidjo - Opening the Lightning In a Bottle concert at Radio City Music Hall in New York City - 2003

        by LilithGardener on Wed Jul 31, 2013 at 04:04:50 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  he didn't have to show any x-ray (5+ / 0-)

          he didn't have to show any x-ray that his bruised nose and bloody lip [corresponded to a broken nose].

          "They did not succeed in taking away our voice" - Angelique Kidjo - Opening the Lightning In a Bottle concert at Radio City Music Hall in New York City - 2003

          by LilithGardener on Wed Jul 31, 2013 at 04:11:13 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Is this really so, LG? (4+ / 0-)
          On that basis, the SYG law prohibits the police from doing a thorough investigation.
          That it is totally up to the cop to determine whether a shooting is justified and based on his finding, there can and should be no further investigation?
          If so, this is worse than I thought.

          Maya Angelou: "Without courage, we cannot practice any other virtue with consistency. We can't be kind, true, merciful, generous, or honest."

          by JoanMar on Wed Jul 31, 2013 at 05:51:00 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  From the link in my comment above (6+ / 0-)
            Florida’s law even prohibits law enforcement agencies from arresting a person who used deadly force in self-defense unless the agency determines that probable cause exists that the force used was unlawful. In certain circumstances, the law actually creates a presumption that a shooter had a reasonable fear of imminent death or great bodily harm when using deadly force.
            To my understanding, the law means that unless there are witnesses OR there is something obviously amiss with the shooter, (e.g. the shooter reeks of alcohol), the police can't arrest the shooter at the scene of the shooting, they can't collect blood/urine/hair samples for drug testing, etc.

            And as we saw with Trayvon, evidence collection can be skipped with impunity. In the GZ/TM case the shooter claims that the victim used his bare hands to beat him within an inch of death, but the criminal investigation didn't bother to bag the dead kid's hands. In any dispute involving an allegation of fisticuffs wouldn't the dead kid's hands be primary evidence that the shooter was justified?

            But Trayvon's hands weren't bagged, so their value as evidence degraded ad. It was raining. The prosecution couldn't make much of the lack of DNA because a key piece of the victim's evidence simply was not preserved.

            "They did not succeed in taking away our voice" - Angelique Kidjo - Opening the Lightning In a Bottle concert at Radio City Music Hall in New York City - 2003

            by LilithGardener on Wed Jul 31, 2013 at 07:40:15 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  It seems more like a license to not (6+ / 0-)

        investigate.

        No witness, no murder.

        "They did not succeed in taking away our voice" - Angelique Kidjo - Opening the Lightning In a Bottle concert at Radio City Music Hall in New York City - 2003

        by LilithGardener on Wed Jul 31, 2013 at 04:07:57 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Like I've said: SYG = kill a n***er, a witness, (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          DefendOurConstitution

          A biz rival.......

          nosotros no somos estúpidos

          by a2nite on Thu Aug 01, 2013 at 12:03:46 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I think I appreciate where you are coming (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            DefendOurConstitution

            from, and I agree about the underlying concepts.

            But I can't rec because I find the phrasing harsh, in a confrontational and antagonistic way.

            That's just my opinion, and I'm not in any position to judge how others express their frustration and rage. I respect your right to sound off.

            "They did not succeed in taking away our voice" - Angelique Kidjo - Opening the Lightning In a Bottle concert at Radio City Music Hall in New York City - 2003

            by LilithGardener on Thu Aug 01, 2013 at 12:30:28 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

Subscribe or Donate to support Daily Kos.

Click here for the mobile view of the site