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View Diary: The race away from the middle in state legislatures: An interesting new study on party polarization (98 comments)

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  •  ... (1+ / 0-)
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    NoFortunateSon

    What?

    Not a single thing that I said was self-contradictory. I encourage you to debate me on the intellectual and academic merits of my argument and to not devolve into extremely dispiriting and disgusting personal attacks. If I weren't involved in this conversation I'd seriously consider an HR here.

    23 Burkean Post Modern Gay Democrat; NM-2 (Raised), TX-20 (B.A. & M.A. in Political Science), TX-17 (Home); 08/12 PVIs

    by wwmiv on Sun Aug 04, 2013 at 07:20:56 PM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  So what you're saying is (0+ / 0-)

      that if the Democrats are "polarizing" at all, it is entirely possible that they're polarizing on the same side of the ideological spectrum as the Republicans ("You can say, at the exact same time, that the Democratic Party has moved to the right"), just not as extremely?

      Dogs from the street can have all the desirable qualities that one could want from pet dogs. Most adopted stray dogs are usually humble and exceptionally faithful to their owners as if they are grateful for this kindness. -- H.M. Bhumibol Adulyadej

      by corvo on Sun Aug 04, 2013 at 07:25:55 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  If you're saying what I think you are (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        NoFortunateSon

        the answer is "yes".

        Polarization simply means the degree to which elected officials match their party in their votes. If all Democrats suddenly start acting like clones of each other while supporting moderate to conservative policies, while Republicans suddenly start acting like clones of each other while supporting extremely conservative policies, we would say that that partisan system had become polarized.

        23 Burkean Post Modern Gay Democrat; NM-2 (Raised), TX-20 (B.A. & M.A. in Political Science), TX-17 (Home); 08/12 PVIs

        by wwmiv on Sun Aug 04, 2013 at 07:28:19 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  But of course (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          wu ming

          if you believe the political spectrum can accommodate only two poles.

          The devastating thing -- for us and for the planet -- is that you might be right about this.

          Dogs from the street can have all the desirable qualities that one could want from pet dogs. Most adopted stray dogs are usually humble and exceptionally faithful to their owners as if they are grateful for this kindness. -- H.M. Bhumibol Adulyadej

          by corvo on Sun Aug 04, 2013 at 07:30:29 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I don't believe that the political spectrum can (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            NoFortunateSon

            only contain a single dimension...

            I do recognize that American politics has always had a dominant single dimension which we call the liberal-conservative axis, but that is has, at times, had a second dimension that helps explain votes. Poole and Rosenthal, in fact, have much work to this effect. Throughout the early 1900s to the 70s, racial ideology (most easily viewed as a regional dynamic between the south and the rest of the country) was a significant predictor on some votes that wasn't captured well by the first dimension...

            But that has nothing to do with the argument I was making. You have thus far still refused to debate me on the merits.

            23 Burkean Post Modern Gay Democrat; NM-2 (Raised), TX-20 (B.A. & M.A. in Political Science), TX-17 (Home); 08/12 PVIs

            by wwmiv on Sun Aug 04, 2013 at 07:37:05 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  You're talking about the establishment of poles; (0+ / 0-)

              I prefer to discuss the Overton Window.

              We're really talking past each other.

              Dogs from the street can have all the desirable qualities that one could want from pet dogs. Most adopted stray dogs are usually humble and exceptionally faithful to their owners as if they are grateful for this kindness. -- H.M. Bhumibol Adulyadej

              by corvo on Sun Aug 04, 2013 at 07:39:36 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  What?! (0+ / 0-)

                Absolutely none of the comments you've previously written have anything at all to do with the Overton window. Do you even know what the Overton window is?

                The basic idea is that ideological actors will confine their political ideology to the realm of possibility. Polarization has only a minimal bit to do with the Overton window insofar as the polarization points are within the realm of possibility for that particular polity.

                23 Burkean Post Modern Gay Democrat; NM-2 (Raised), TX-20 (B.A. & M.A. in Political Science), TX-17 (Home); 08/12 PVIs

                by wwmiv on Sun Aug 04, 2013 at 07:46:32 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  And you've just demonstrated perfectly (0+ / 0-)

                  how we're talking past each other.  Once one accepts the terms of the argument as laid down by the other side, one finds that the realm of possibility has been similarly restricted.

                  Dogs from the street can have all the desirable qualities that one could want from pet dogs. Most adopted stray dogs are usually humble and exceptionally faithful to their owners as if they are grateful for this kindness. -- H.M. Bhumibol Adulyadej

                  by corvo on Sun Aug 04, 2013 at 07:50:46 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  ... (0+ / 0-)

                    I'm not talking past you, but you certainly are talking past me. I've directly rebuked every. single. thing. you've said, but you've basically ignored all my major points and instead brought in new irrelevant arguments seemingly so you can say that I'm talking past you.

                    I give up. I really really really give up.

                    23 Burkean Post Modern Gay Democrat; NM-2 (Raised), TX-20 (B.A. & M.A. in Political Science), TX-17 (Home); 08/12 PVIs

                    by wwmiv on Sun Aug 04, 2013 at 07:56:53 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

        •  and in which case, (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          wu ming

          so much for the Grist writer's (and the diarist's) contention that, and I quote:

          The left's gone left but the right's gone nuts
          Not if the left went right and established a new pole there.

          Dogs from the street can have all the desirable qualities that one could want from pet dogs. Most adopted stray dogs are usually humble and exceptionally faithful to their owners as if they are grateful for this kindness. -- H.M. Bhumibol Adulyadej

          by corvo on Sun Aug 04, 2013 at 07:34:09 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Yes (0+ / 0-)

            But the problem here is that that's your opinion, not everyone's. I agree with the author that the left has gone left, as can clearly been seen by the dropping out of many southern racists of the Democratic Party over the last 30 years.

            23 Burkean Post Modern Gay Democrat; NM-2 (Raised), TX-20 (B.A. & M.A. in Political Science), TX-17 (Home); 08/12 PVIs

            by wwmiv on Sun Aug 04, 2013 at 07:42:20 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Which is why we're now seriously considering (0+ / 0-)

              chained CPI and other "entitlement reform" strategies, not to mention more "free trade agreements," no doubt.

              Dogs from the street can have all the desirable qualities that one could want from pet dogs. Most adopted stray dogs are usually humble and exceptionally faithful to their owners as if they are grateful for this kindness. -- H.M. Bhumibol Adulyadej

              by corvo on Sun Aug 04, 2013 at 07:46:02 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  ... (0+ / 0-)

                Are you seriously arguing that if we had southern racists in our party still, that we wouldn't be considering chained CPI or free trade agreements?

                Either that or yours was an entirely sarcastic comment that has no place in academic discussion.

                23 Burkean Post Modern Gay Democrat; NM-2 (Raised), TX-20 (B.A. & M.A. in Political Science), TX-17 (Home); 08/12 PVIs

                by wwmiv on Sun Aug 04, 2013 at 07:48:15 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  that's quite a hypothetical (0+ / 0-)
                  Are you seriously arguing that if we had southern racists in our party still, that we wouldn't be considering chained CPI or free trade agreements?
                  you've got there.  It also doesn't address the rightward shift of the party on socioeconomic issues.

                  Dogs from the street can have all the desirable qualities that one could want from pet dogs. Most adopted stray dogs are usually humble and exceptionally faithful to their owners as if they are grateful for this kindness. -- H.M. Bhumibol Adulyadej

                  by corvo on Sun Aug 04, 2013 at 07:52:32 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  OMFG (0+ / 0-)

                    You responded with that to my point that southern racists have moved out of the party. It was a logical conclusion when you respond with "which is why we're considering x and y" for me to believe you meant a causal link between what I said and what you're introducing.

                    It isn't a hypothetical of my creation, it is a hypothetical of your own creation.

                    23 Burkean Post Modern Gay Democrat; NM-2 (Raised), TX-20 (B.A. & M.A. in Political Science), TX-17 (Home); 08/12 PVIs

                    by wwmiv on Sun Aug 04, 2013 at 07:58:53 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                •  Well we passed the New Deal (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  wwmiv, jncca

                  ...with the southern racists who occasionally wanted to fix things for their poor (white) folk. It's not like populism and nativism or outright racism are mutually exclusive. So yeah, if racial issues hadn't broken that coalition it might entirely be the case that economic populism would be stronger compared to the current party.

                  That might lead to other problems especially on social issues, however. So I'm not saying that would have been a preferable outcome.

                  •  Although this may seem to be the case (0+ / 0-)

                    given qualitative data, it is very hard to prove causally.

                    Furthermore, economic issues are not the only thing that permeates the liberal-conservative dimension. They may have moved the party to the right on some economic positions, but they also moved the party to the left on many others (not least of which is social policy). The result? Either stand pat or a slight more leftward.

                    23 Burkean Post Modern Gay Democrat; NM-2 (Raised), TX-20 (B.A. & M.A. in Political Science), TX-17 (Home); 08/12 PVIs

                    by wwmiv on Sun Aug 04, 2013 at 08:14:39 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                •  And to further address the "chained CPI" issue. (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  wwmiv, wu ming

                  Because of the social break, the rockefeller big business republicans felt more at home over the generations in the democratic party. So is there a reason that their influence couldn't well have moved the party to the right?

                  Or simply that making liberal strong holds in financial capitals like Delware and NY enabled friendly legislators to business to arise, whose only realistic path to power was to run as  D and who found those social issues palatable anyway.

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