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  •  Learn some history (0+ / 0-)

    Lets be clear about this - the military does not make up the Uniform Code of Military Justice, Congress and the President do.

    You vote for Congress.  You vote for President.

    The UCMJ reflects the laws YOU want.  

    The UCMJ said that being gay was a chargeable offense.

    Commanders had NO CHOICE since they all took an oath to follow the UCMJ.  

    So if you have a problem with military law, look in the mirror.

    And lets be clear about something else - the military in general and the Army in particular has been FAR ahead of civilian society on minority rights.

    We were fully integrated in 1948 - 15 years before Dr. King had a Dream and 16 before the Civil Rights Act.  

    You forget that in 1993 DADT was a step forward.  The military was essentially saying that sexuality was no ones business at their place of business.  In 1994 Tom Hanks won the Oscar for his role in "Philadelphia" and helped spark the same debate in the corporate world.  Read that again.  The debate started after the military had decided.  The military was the first large institution to effectively acknowledge that 1) Gays are part of our organization and 2) We are fine with that.

    The Army has recognized Wicans since 1998 (cant speak for the other services) and though the record is not perfect, it is far better than any other large institution in the country.

    The repeal of DADT was delayed by the 2000 election.  Had Al Gore won it would have been gone in early 2001 and the vast majority of commanders would have been happy with that.  DADT was always meant to be a short term bridge and no one was happy with a situation that created institutionalized lies.  By the time it was repealed even those who had moral issues with gays were more opposed to a system that told people to be deceitful.  Despite the significant setback the military beat most states in truly recognizing that what happens in the bedroom is personal and private.

    Its clear you have issues with the military but you need to learn your history.  Throughout our nations history it has been the military that has lead social change and we have usually been the first to get on the right side of history, not the last.

    It is well that war is so terrible -- lest we should grow too fond of it. Robert E. Lee

    by ksuwildkat on Fri Aug 02, 2013 at 10:24:23 PM PDT

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    •  Don't lecture me on history. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      LilithGardener

      Especially when you are using strictly numbers and not had rape victims cry on your shoulder because not only were they raped they were terrorized to not report it as to not be arrested for being Lesbian.

      I'm very familiar with the subject being discussed and my history base started when our military was formed. Not just a fifty year snapshot.

      BTW- I saw a colored drinking fountain in 1972 I asked why and was told it was to keep the admirals wives happy so they wouldn't work about their children drinking from the same device as the rest of the world.

      LOL:

      Throughout our nations history it has been the military that has lead social change and we have usually been the first to get on the right side of history, not the last.
      They had to be ordered to integrate and even now there are "pure" units in every branch.
      •  Nice story (0+ / 0-)

        with out a shred of fact.

        Of course they had to be ORDERED to integrate.  We issue ORDERS for everything.  We are an ORDERS based organization.  When I go to work tomorrow my scope of work will fall under OPORD XXXX-12 since the OPERATIONS ORDER we are working under was last revised in 2012.  And since segregation was an ORDER it required an ORDER to change.  

        Please name ONE - just one - "pure" unit.  I havn't been in every unit in the US Army but I have been in a lot and every single one has had every race/color/creed.  Try slandering a Navy unit because i have only been in a few of those.  Or Marine.  Not a fan of the Marines so I might even believe you.

        '72.  What Naval base was that you were on in 72?  Better hit Wikipedia so you dont accidentally name one that wasn't open then.  And what work area was so often frequented by children and wives in 1972 that they had separate drinking fountains?  Think hard because I grew up on base and I remember it well.

        It is well that war is so terrible -- lest we should grow too fond of it. Robert E. Lee

        by ksuwildkat on Fri Aug 02, 2013 at 11:57:27 PM PDT

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    •  If you're going to lecture someone... (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      elginblt, LilithGardener

      ...at least get your facts straight. The military was not fully integrated by 1948. It took decades before that actually happened. All of my uncles served during Vietnam, and two of them served in a whites-only unit.

      Speaking as someone who has actually served, in no way is the military a beacon of progress. It is true that big racial changes began in the military, both with Truman and with Lincoln. However the racial tensions and just outright racism I witnessed while I served were worse in the military than anywhere else I've ever lived. And I currently live in the South.

      Time is of no account with great thoughts, which are as fresh to-day as when they first passed through their authors' minds ages ago. - Samuel Smiles

      by moviemeister76 on Sat Aug 03, 2013 at 03:53:54 AM PDT

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      •  Name them (0+ / 0-)

        Name the units.  If they were in a unit with whites only it was because of they disproportionate number of African Americans in supply/support units and not by policy.  Prior to 1948 minorities were relegated to support units and it took time before they were fully represented across the Army.  On the other hand if your uncles served in the Guard and happened to be from the South it is entirely possible that they were in white only units but that was the fault of the Governor, not the military.  

        Speaking as someone who IS serving and HAS BEEN serving for close to 3 decades I will agree that I have seen ugly racism in the military.  Name the group and I have seen racism against them.  But the military remains the ONLY large institution in this country where African Americans routinely supervise Caucasians.  We are the ONLY large institution in the nation that has 100% equal pay by race and gender.  

        We are the ONLY large institution in this country that provides social mobility.  How many lower middle class black kids from the South Bronx become Secretary of State?  Yeah, just one.  And dont kid yourself - If Colin Powell isnt a war time Chairman of the Joint Chiefs, on TV every day as the face of the military in 1990 he doesnt become SecState.  And if he doesnt become SecState Barrack Obama doent become President.  You know why Colin Powell was the most senior military officer 20 years before Barrack Obama was President?  Because the military started 15 years before the rest of the country.  

        It is well that war is so terrible -- lest we should grow too fond of it. Robert E. Lee

        by ksuwildkat on Sat Aug 03, 2013 at 09:02:17 AM PDT

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        •  You're not right with that either (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          LilithGardener

          I meant to add last night that, actually, the civilian sector of the federal government in Washington D.C. had actually integrated decades before the military. However, President Wilson reinstated segregation as soon as he got into office.

          As for my the units my uncles were in, I have no idea. Like many old combat veterans, they refuse to even talk about their service much. I only know the two who did had actually voluntarily enlisted into the marines, whereas my other older uncles who were in integrated unites were drafted into the army. It's been pretty widely acknowledged that the marines did drag their feet when it came to integration compared to the other branches.

          And as for equal pay despite race, just because you can name a token black person who made it to Joint Chiefs doesn't mean that work and pay is equalized in the military. People of color are still very much disproportionately assigned to lesser jobs compared to white people, and the number of officers who are people of color is ridiculously low, especially once you get past captain.When I was in the military, I never even saw a black officer higher than the rank of captain, and only saw one black captain.

          Time is of no account with great thoughts, which are as fresh to-day as when they first passed through their authors' minds ages ago. - Samuel Smiles

          by moviemeister76 on Sat Aug 03, 2013 at 11:39:04 AM PDT

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          •  We have hard numbers on this stuff... (0+ / 0-)

            DoD publishes a demographics report every year.  (PDF of the 2012 report available here)

            Active Duty, Black or African American:

            * Army: 21.8% of enlisted, 13.6% of officers
            * Navy: 19.4% of enlisted, 8.1% of officers
            * Marines: 10.9% of enlisted, 5.6% of officers
            * Air Force: 16.5% of enlisted, 5.7% of officers
            * Overall: 18.4% of enlisted, 9.5% of officers

            I think it's important to remember that this is a volunteer force, so it's an unpredictable balance from the outset.

            Ratio of all minority officers to minority enlisted:

            * Army: 1 to 5.4
            * Navy: 1 to 11.0
            * Marines: 1 to 9.1
            * Air Force: 1 to 5.6
            * Overall: 1 to 6.8

            Minority percentages by pay grade, Army:

            E1-E4: 25.9% minority
            E5-E6: 35.0% minority
            E7-E9: 47.4% minority
            W1-W5: 36.0% minority
            O1-O3: 27.3% minority
            O4-O6: 23.9% minority
            O7-O10: 12.4% minority

            Now, what about trends?  Well, since 1995 the Army has almost doubled the percentage of minority officers, from 14.6% to 27.6%, even as the enlisted minority percentage is trending downward, from a peak of 45.1% in 2000 to 31.4% in 2011.

            There are many, many factors at work here, but I don't think your "token" argument is justified.  Check the link for all the numbers you'd ever want to crunch...

            The word "parent" is supposed to be a VERB, people...

            by wesmorgan1 on Sat Aug 03, 2013 at 03:00:52 PM PDT

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    •  Problem when you claim to be an expert (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      LilithGardener

      on military history of inclusion and diversity.  You actually have to be factually correct.  When you make claims, really extravagant exclamations, of fact, to wit:

      And lets be clear about something else - the military in general and the Army in particular has been FAR ahead of civilian society on minority rights.

      We were fully integrated in 1948 - 15 years before Dr. King had a Dream and 16 before the Civil Rights Act.  

      Apparently, the SecDef McNamara, in 1963 did not agree with your fulsome and fulminating declaration that the US military was "fully integrated in 1948" because he issue DD 5120.36 as a DoD Directive.  
      In fact, the full desegregation of the military was not considered complete until July 26, 1963 — fifteen years to the day after Truman’s initial executive order — when the Defense Department, under Secretary of Defense Robert J. McNamara, issued its own directive, Defense Directive 5120.36, pushing for the elimination of discrimination against black troops outside of the military base.
      TheGrio

      I suspect only white folks not serving in the military may have considered Truman's directive the complete end to segregation in the US military.

      So you know, my family has served in the segregated US military back when it was segregated, (in the segregated non-white peoples units) and continued to serve as it moved to an officially and more fully racially integrated US military.  But no marines or airforce in my family, only US Army and US Navy (including service academies).

      Your declarations of fact got ahead of the facts, and causes the rest of your declarations to be viewed with a large measure of salt.  Perhaps next time, stay away from history and stick to the present to which you claim to have first hand experience.  Probably cleaner that way.  But it happens.

      "Out of Many, One Nation." This is the great promise of the United States of America -9.75 -6.87

      by Uncle Moji on Sat Aug 03, 2013 at 09:00:12 AM PDT

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      •  nice distraction (0+ / 0-)

        But you actually make my point for me.  What McNamara did was use the power of the purse to keep mostly southern communities from discriminating against blacks.  It let (read REQUIRED) commanders designate as off limits businesses that discriminated against anyone.  This meant that white soldiers could not shop or rent from those businesses.  He couldnt force them to think right for moral reasons so he used his biggest stick - money - to make them at least ACT like they changed.  he used the economic power of the DoD to DRAG the south forward.

        Every military commander has the responsibility to oppose discriminatory practices affecting his men and their dependents and to foster equal opportunity for them, not only in areas under his immediate control, but also in nearby communities where they may live or gather in off-duty hours.
        More importantly it meant that racist leaders could not hide behind off post racism.  What they would do is hold a social function off post at a "whites only" cub/business and claim it was not their fault the black soldiers didnt attend (we are talking mostly officers here).  The Army was even more socially oriented then than it is now since only a small percentage of soldiers (Regular Army) made it a career.  Promotions and commands were "who you know" and if blacks were excluded from those social functions they were never going to advance.  

        No, Truman did not waive a magic wand in 1948 and solve every racial issue.  Units deployed to Korea as de facto "Black" or "White" units.  It takes time to build leaders and time to change attitudes.  But while the rest of the nation was DEBATING equality in the 60's the military was implementing it and using its economic muscle to make the civilian world follow their lead.  

        It is well that war is so terrible -- lest we should grow too fond of it. Robert E. Lee

        by ksuwildkat on Sat Aug 03, 2013 at 09:36:16 AM PDT

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        •  You can try to claim credit for what you did not (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          LilithGardener

          say, you did say, it was you, wasn't it, who said:

          And lets be clear about something else - the military in general and the Army in particular has been FAR ahead of civilian society on minority rights.

          We were fully integrated in 1948 - 15 years before Dr. King had a Dream and 16 before the Civil Rights Act.  

          Now, I've made embarrassing misstatements over the years and perhaps you didn't mean to use the word "fully" or didn't mean to take the obnoxious know-it-all tone you did, but you did, and intellectual honesty requires that you acknowledge your boo boo, boo boo.    

          So, your word or words or McNamara's (much as he may be a Vietnam era war criminal), I'll take McNamara's that prove you're wrong.  

          Spin how you will, you still made the error in big bold non-erasable text, and uh, man up, because right now, you're just digging deeper and it may be time to stop with this thread on racism while you can, and go back to arguing about the military's record on providing a safe haven from sexual assault for women in the military.  

          "Out of Many, One Nation." This is the great promise of the United States of America -9.75 -6.87

          by Uncle Moji on Sat Aug 03, 2013 at 10:43:49 AM PDT

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          •  Have it your way (0+ / 0-)

            Bottom line is that Turman - you know the President - ordered full integration.  McNamara's directive only provided a tool to punish off post facilities.  NOTHING about McNamara's directive changed, added to or otherwise modified integration of units.  

            It is well that war is so terrible -- lest we should grow too fond of it. Robert E. Lee

            by ksuwildkat on Sat Aug 03, 2013 at 06:57:08 PM PDT

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            •  I take that as your apology (0+ / 0-)

              for misstating the truth, that despite your fulsome comment about "full integration" in 1948, yes, well, waaaaayyyy ahead of full integration elsewhere, you were wrong.  

              Really, you can say it, it's healthy to admit when you've made an error.  Intellectual honesty is nothing to be ashamed of.  

              Bottom line is that when you continue to argue these details rather than simply concede them and move on, you mire yourself in your own sh*t, and you look more like an ass than you could have by simply employing the commonly used "point taken" and gone on.

              The two free lessons you should learn here are:  

              1. It is statistically impossible for humans not to make mistakes, and being human ain't a bad thing.  

              2. Success (in life and in business and in argument) is not never making a mistake, but learning how to recover from them (not attempt to cover-up the error - have we learned nothing from Nixon & Clinton?) and then fix the damned problem.  

              Have an excellent day!

              "Out of Many, One Nation." This is the great promise of the United States of America -9.75 -6.87

              by Uncle Moji on Sun Aug 04, 2013 at 05:14:25 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

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