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View Diary: “Masonic Lobbies” Remark Reveals Pope Francis’ Darker Side (72 comments)

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  •  I was thrilled (8+ / 0-)

    by Pope Francis's welcoming words and pastoral tone in speaking of his (and our) gay brothers and sisters.  

    He did mention the masonic lobby, but only in the midst of a list of lobbies, and I thought he was criticizing pressure groups in general.

    IMHO, this pope intends to effect wonderful change, and he's moving in ways that are freaking out conservatives.  That can't be bad.

    A 47% return on investment--that's pretty doggoned good!

    by deminva on Sat Aug 03, 2013 at 04:22:10 AM PDT

    •  I agree the pope's tone for those with a gay (17+ / 0-)

      orientation differed from Benedict's. However, I don't think he's changed any homophobic hearts.

      As to "effecting wonderful change," the only actions he's taken is to install solid plutocratic representation on the committees he's formed to analyse internal curial reform.

      See http://www.dailykos.com/... and
      http://www.dailykos.com/...

    •  As a non-priest gay man, (11+ / 0-)

      I was less-than-thrilled with his "who am I to judge?" remark. It's his personal philosophy specifically relevant to priests only (not to all of the Catholic Church's gay brothers and sisters), men who (in theory) have adopted vows of celibacy and effectively abandoned their sexuality in service to a still-oppressive church. To my knowledge, he has made no statement of any kind in regard to gay women, although I suppose it can be inferred that his philosophy would apply also to celibate gay nuns.

      Not exactly liberating, in my view.

      If I were a gay priest (or nun) and familiar with Biblical passages such as "Judge not lest ye be judged," I suspect my reaction to his "Who am I to judge?" remark would have been more along the line of "duh" than thrilled.

    •  How do you deal with the fact that he also (7+ / 0-)

      mentioned gay lobbies and the gay agenda in the same speech?

      Here's the quote:

      “The Catechism of the Catholic Church explains this very well,” Francis said in the 80-minute long interview on a flight back from Rio de Janeiro. “It says [gay men] should not be marginalized because of this but that they must be integrated into society.”

      Before you get the impression that this is a total sea change for the Church, Francis followed up with a line about a “gay agenda.”

      “The problem is not having this orientation,” he said. “We must be brothers. The problem is lobbying by this orientation, or lobbies of greedy people, political lobbies, Masonic lobbies, so many lobbies. This is the worse problem.”

      From Out Magazine.

      So gays should be integrate themselves into society by not being gay and not raising a fuss about it.

      This is the same old policy, just dressed up in softer language.

      The only thing that has changed is the tone. I can't see this as some kind of sea change, I can only see this as a PR move by an organization that says that I am damned to hell for the way god created me.

      And now the leader of that organization says he's cool with me as long as I deny the way god made me.

      And you think this is some kind of change?

      I think Francis has a lot to offer the world, especially on economic issues. I think he has the capability to be the best pope since John XXIII, and I don't think he's a terrible person.

      But I do think he's anti-gay. Just with some softer language.

      It's clear from the pope's own words that he has a problem with us speaking out: "lobbying" by an orientation.

      And whether someone's screaming about the "Gay Agenda" or equivocating softly about it doesn't make much of a difference to me.

      People are looking at the pope's words here and seeing what they want to see. We all want the pope to come around and join the 20th century. On Economic issues, I think he has.

      But on the social stuff? His words, though soft, were still bigoted.

      An Fhirinn an aghaidh an t'Saoghail. (The truth against the world.) Is treasa tuath na tighearna. (The common people are mightier than the lords.)

      by OllieGarkey on Sat Aug 03, 2013 at 07:37:31 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Sure, I wish he openly embraced "the gay agenda" (0+ / 0-)

        But I don't believe that wish is possible, right now.  I think if a new pope stood up and overtly sought to throw out much of the Catholic church's current teachings/dogma/practices, there'd be hell to pay--anywhere from splintering of the church to assassination.  

        So I think it's more effective for Francis to begin by voicing tolerance and love -- even if he's not overtly upending church teachings.  He's setting the stage for a lot of change, and -- who knows -- maybe even leading the church into the 21st century.

        This is the same guy who freaked out half the church by washing the feet of teenage Muslim girls.  In doing so, he didn't countermand any church teachings or force any change.  Indeed, he explicitly but tacitly emulated Jesus, and in so doing, IMHO, showed his rather massive flock that it's not such a bad thing to do.  The same guy who said love thy neighbor and judge not lest you be judged.  

        A 47% return on investment--that's pretty doggoned good!

        by deminva on Sat Aug 03, 2013 at 10:08:25 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  The director of the institution selected those who (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          SeaTurtle, enhydra lutris

          would have their feet washed.
          This did not "freak out" half the Church.
          Don't hold your breath waiting for Francis to order the Vatican, all dioceses and religious orders to divest themselves of their assets to make the Church "poor."
          He is not "setting the stage for a lot of change." He is giving the Catholic Church a benign veneer of pretty words so that the agenda of the same systemically corrupt institution which advanced his ecclesial career and elected him pope can carry on as usual with most of the world completely fooled while they continue business as usual.

        •  Nobody expected him to (3+ / 0-)

          immediately and overtly upend church teachings.
          But then again, nobody forced him to write this "joint" encyclical with Benedict:

          http://www.advocate.com/...

          I think LGBT people are less concerned with how Francis "feels" about them, and more concerned with how he preaches against their rights.

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