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View Diary: Republicans Already Scared of Hillary, Threaten NBC and CNN Over Movies (203 comments)

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  •  Thanks for sharing the Pew report (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    blue aardvark, Ray Pensador

    even if it is depressing. I have to think (hope) this water torture drip drip of NSA stuff will erode some of that. I fear though its greatest impact though may be to depress the vote, allowing for more right wing control.

    I'm just Double Tapped the hell out.

    by pajoly on Mon Aug 05, 2013 at 10:24:18 AM PDT

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    •  I doubt it. The "left" in this country is (12+ / 0-)

      quite weak.  Even a Nader campaign (or defections to libertarians) likely will not affect the election.  

      The NSA stuff likley will be forgotten by then for many.  

      Just my guess.  i could be wrong, but the left usually blows smoke up its own ass and sees a revolutionary transformation around every corner.   In my life (born in 1955), the left has been beaten around until all it can do is bitch on blogs.   It's weak.

      I see that as unfortunate, but reality is as it is.

      Join us on the Black Kos front porch to review news and views written from a black pov—everyone is welcome.

      by TomP on Mon Aug 05, 2013 at 10:28:16 AM PDT

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      •  Nobody likes government spying, Tom (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Ray Pensador, mmacdDE

        That said, it takes time, even for important matters to catch on and for people to take action.  I don't believe in making political prognostications but from what I see and hear and what my gut tells me -- the concern about NSA and other forms of government spying runs across the ideological spectrum and it will not go away.  

        Put another way, it is wrong to say that this a concern limited to the left, then to say it is not an issue because the left is too weak to make it one.  

        •  We'll see. (6+ / 0-)

          It did not seem to bother people that much when Bush did it.

          My bet is this is old news by next year.  I could be wrong.  

          I don't think I said this:

           

          Put another way, it is wrong to say that this a concern limited to the left, then to say it is not an issue because the left is too weak to make it one.  
          I'll bet right now that the "left" as self-defined by many on Daily Kos loses in any attempt to take down Clinton in 2016.  

          As for the Snowden, Manning, Greenwald left, which is a subgroup of the left  (and its Republican/libertarian allies), I suspect there will be minor refroms but the issue will die off.  

          Like I said, I could be wrong.  But the past suggests that people will go with the Christie line (9/11, 9/11!) over cutting back surveillance.  

          It's possible there will be a different outcome.   I'm just not optimistic.

          So there are two issues.  The left overall has been the biggest loser over the last 40 years in this nation.   The second is whether the Snowden/Greenwald left and right can influence the mainstream.  

          We'll see.

          Join us on the Black Kos front porch to review news and views written from a black pov—everyone is welcome.

          by TomP on Mon Aug 05, 2013 at 10:54:31 AM PDT

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          •  Agree, and I think if Hillary runs she wins big (13+ / 0-)

            She will sweep along many Republican women who are fed up with their party trying to control women's bodies.

            He made his bed on love denied. He played Jekyll and Hyde till the day he died.

            by chicago minx on Mon Aug 05, 2013 at 11:08:58 AM PDT

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            •  Never bet on fools coming around... (0+ / 0-)

              GOP women are the gender version of an Uncle Tom / House Slave...

              They will always be at the forefront of battles against women...

              To buy in on that line, you have to buy in very deep, and have a level of self-loathing that people outside of it could not comprehend.

              Thus you get freakshows like Palin and Bachmann.

          •  we'll see indeed (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            JayyVee

            People were indeed concerned about Bush era spying, the concern was not limited to what you disparagingly refer to as the left (the very people who you may want on board with your favored candidate down the road.)  

            In fact, John Poindexter, who advocated the Total Information Awareness system of spying, was forced out of government amidst popular outrage and ridicule.  But what neither Poindexter or the rest of us were aware was that the NSA was already working on a similar system, in secret.  

            Your faulty memory or revisionist history not withstanding TomP -- nobody likes government spying, and the revulsion is not limited to the left.  

            •  Who's my favored candidate? (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              TheLizardKing, Radiowalla, OIL GUY

              Once again, you are having a conversation with yourself.  

              This is cute:

              Your faulty memory or revisionist history
              I recall what happened.  Most people chose security over civil liberties.  My bet is they will do it again.

              I love your attacks on me, though.  Great fun!

              Join us on the Black Kos front porch to review news and views written from a black pov—everyone is welcome.

              by TomP on Mon Aug 05, 2013 at 11:44:56 AM PDT

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              •  Your favored candidate? (0+ / 0-)

                I have no idea.  But whoever it turns out to be, I would guess that you will want to encourage progressives to support that person. I would guess that you will have better luck if you stop sneering at people.  But I suppose I could be wrong about all that.

                That said, I am not wrong about the public revulsion over Bush era spying.  My point, and that of the NYT op-ed I link to, and much of the public discussion currently, is that we mostly did not get to choose about these matters. I will add that we have also recently seen, even  FISA court decisions declaring key parts of the NSA program unconstitutional are kept secret from us, and even senior Members of Congress.  

                People across the political spectrum are repulsed by government spying.

                •  We see different things. (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  OIL GUY

                  I think I realistically see a mixed opinion on the issue.  You seem to think there is overwheliming public revulsion, both now and later.  

                  Glass half full or half empty.

                  Join us on the Black Kos front porch to review news and views written from a black pov—everyone is welcome.

                  by TomP on Mon Aug 05, 2013 at 12:23:15 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  it is not a matter (0+ / 0-)

                    of optimism or pessimism.  

                    I think it is a matter of both fact-based common sense and historic inevitability -- which candidates for public office and their advocates really ought to seriously consider.  Especially those who also think that civil liberties and that some semblance of Constitutional governance still matters.  Those who try to half-a loaf-it, or pooh pooh legitimate concerns, will be remembered -- as will those who take leadership in trying to restore these basic elements of what holds us together as a people.

                    •  Love your threats and (0+ / 0-)

                      your certainty that only you sees the truth.  

                      I think it is a matter of both fact-based common sense and historic inevitability
                      This made me laugh out loud.  Yes, your "god" of historic inevitability will get all your perceived enemies.  

                      What a fucking joke.

                      The funny thing is I oppose the NSA stuff.  We're not even on different sides.  Just talking about what is rather than what you may wish the world to be.  We disagree on how people have and will react.  

                      But now you have to threaten:

                      Those who try to half-a loaf-it, or pooh pooh legitimate concerns, will be remembered
                      What a fucking joke that comment was.  

                      Join us on the Black Kos front porch to review news and views written from a black pov—everyone is welcome.

                      by TomP on Mon Aug 05, 2013 at 01:06:07 PM PDT

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                      •  Its too bad (0+ / 0-)

                        that your approach to this is now pretty much limited to saying "what a fucking joke" and falsely characterizing my ideas.  I made no threats.

                        Before someone violates Godwin's Law, I'll take my leave.  But before I do, I just want to say that I hope  that sometime -- maybe in a few days when you are not in the middle of some online thing and have forgotten all about this thread -- that you reconsider how you do online discussion.  I have in the past seen you as a reasonable person, but alas, I have seen you become increasingly combative with, as you say, people with whom you largely agree.  I agree with you on may things as well, and have nothing against you.  

                        In fact, most of us here have far more in common with each other than differences.  I think the art of doing Daily Kos has a lot to do with how to navigate our differences without turning them into divisions.  At least, I think we are at our best when we do that. And while like anyone else, I may not always achieve that, I do try.  And I'd like to think that we share that goal in common as well.

          •  Will Snowden be able to vote on an absentee ballot (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            TomP, TheLizardKing

            And it feels like I'm livin'in the wasteland of the free ~ Iris DeMent, 1996

            by MrJersey on Mon Aug 05, 2013 at 11:26:26 AM PDT

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      •  The left... (0+ / 0-)

        The left has left the building.

        There is no center or middle left left in the USA, and the far left... they are Occupy or some aging hippies in Berkeley that make $300,000+ a year...
        - Ineffective by intent, or raging against the machine they have used to prop themselves up.

        What we instead have is a democratic party of centrists and right leaning centrists, battling it out with a GOP of extremists right and middle right.

        "The old guard" of the GOP has more in common with the average democrat than they do with the new guard of the GOP... but that is not because they have become more moderate... but because the Dems have moved so far to the right...

      •  It's not a question of "would Nader affect things" (0+ / 0-)

        What I want to know from people who say things like this is

        "Do you think a Paul Ryan presidency would be the same as a Hillary presidency, and if your one vote would determine the election would you vote for Hillary or not?"

        People died because Gore lost in 2000. Hundreds of thousands of people died. We have the Patriot Act. We have Citizens United. We have the Roberts Supreme Court. That's just a few things.

        Unfortunately we don't have a choice between Democrat, Republican and the progressive we really want. We get the choice between the Democrat and the Republican.

        If you don't want to choose either that's fine, but you should at least acknowledge that you're ok with the damage the Republican is going to do if elected. If that's acceptable collateral damage to you then we can have a discussion about that.

        When we stop putting leaders from the past up on pedestals and ignoring their flaws, we can start seeing our present leaders for what they really are.

        by PhillyJeff on Mon Aug 05, 2013 at 04:56:00 PM PDT

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