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View Diary: Not content with wild exaggerations, Glenn Greenwald goes into full Beck/Jones conspiracy territory (324 comments)

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    •  Then you didn't read the comment I replied to. (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Reggid, sewaneepat, divineorder
      I honestly have no idea how You are evaluating actions on national security - but there appears to be a pretty cohesive policy from one administration to the other
      IF You are going to point out the "lying to get us into Iraq ..." - I doubt You'll get any disagreement ... beyond that, the various policies and actions that followed haven't changed in any real way, have they?

      Art is the handmaid of human good.

      by joe from Lowell on Tue Aug 06, 2013 at 11:57:34 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Fair enough (3+ / 0-)

        To extend it past surveillance, and possibly drones (a policy I have argued is legal and justifiable though probably not effective at this point) and indefinite detention (again a policy I support on legal and policy grounds), is pretty silly.

        •  The indefinite detention policy has changed a lot. (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Reggid

          Not a single terrorism suspect has been put into indefinite detention since Obama came into office. That's a rather dramatic change in policy from Bush, no?

          I'd argue that the use of drones has changed dramatically, too. There have been a lot more missions under Obama, and the civilian death rate has plummeted.

          Art is the handmaid of human good.

          by joe from Lowell on Tue Aug 06, 2013 at 12:09:29 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I'm not sure (7+ / 0-)

            that the change in indefinite detention policy is not a consequence of increased drone use and, yes, a reduced terrorism threat.

            On civilian death RATES, that may be true, but absolute numbers of civilian deaths from drones seem to have dramatically increased, probably, as you state, because of higher mission numbers.

            •  Just under half the civ. deaths were under Bush. (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Reggid, Catte Nappe, closerange

              There was a major change in drone doctrine....in 2009. Since then, both the absolute numbers and rates have fallen dramatically.  The worst year for civilian deaths was 2006. The second-worst year was 2009.

              The connection between drone use and detention isn't valid, though. Drone strikes aren't being carried out in place of missions to capture people. They're taking place in areas where the military isn't able to operate, like the FATAs of Pakistan and the rebel-controlled areas of Yemen. Drone strikes aren't replacing capture missions. They're replacing "do nothing."

              Art is the handmaid of human good.

              by joe from Lowell on Tue Aug 06, 2013 at 12:22:15 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Just so we're all on the same page... (13+ / 0-)

                ...could you link the source for the count of these civilian deaths?

                Don't tell me what you believe, show me what you do and I will tell you what you believe.

                by Meteor Blades on Tue Aug 06, 2013 at 12:30:10 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Link below (3+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Catte Nappe, Meteor Blades, Reggid

                  It's a Wikipedia reprint of the New America Foundation's numbers. Scroll to "Statistics."

                  Here is a page from the Bureau of Investigative Journalism for Pakistan. The red bars in the top three graphs are their civilian death numbers.

                  That outfit doesn't seem to have the civilian numbers for Yemen readily available, probably because they have been so low.

                  Art is the handmaid of human good.

                  by joe from Lowell on Tue Aug 06, 2013 at 12:43:01 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  didn't we start classifying any male teen or older (10+ / 0-)

                    as a militant a couple years ago? could that possibly be the reason that the "civilian" count is low?

                    "The further a society drifts from truth, the more it will hate those that speak it." ~George Orwell "When it is dark enough, you can see the stars." ~Charles Beard

                    by poligirl on Tue Aug 06, 2013 at 12:49:38 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  No. (2+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Reggid, Lying eyes

                      And these aren't based on government data anyway.

                      Sorry, the news isn't as bad as you hope.

                      Art is the handmaid of human good.

                      by joe from Lowell on Tue Aug 06, 2013 at 12:50:40 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  are you sure you want to use the Bureau of (6+ / 0-)

                        Investigative Journalism to back your claim?

                        "The further a society drifts from truth, the more it will hate those that speak it." ~George Orwell "When it is dark enough, you can see the stars." ~Charles Beard

                        by poligirl on Tue Aug 06, 2013 at 02:08:29 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  Why wouldn't I? Their numbers seem credible... (0+ / 0-)

                          and they back up my claim.

                          Yup, I'm very sure I want to us the BIJ numbers.

                          Art is the handmaid of human good.

                          by joe from Lowell on Tue Aug 06, 2013 at 02:11:03 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  their front page right now tells us that they now (8+ / 0-)

                            have fresh evidence that we're committing war crimes:

                            Bureau investigation finds fresh evidence of CIA drone strikes on rescuers

                            "The further a society drifts from truth, the more it will hate those that speak it." ~George Orwell "When it is dark enough, you can see the stars." ~Charles Beard

                            by poligirl on Tue Aug 06, 2013 at 02:32:49 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  And does that rebut their numbers? Or...? (0+ / 0-)

                            I'm supposed to not find their numbers credible because...why, exactly? Because of that story?

                            I'm really not following you here.

                            Not all of us base of understanding of factual question on this "my team/your team" stuff. You should try to break that habit.

                            The numbers are what they are. What do you think you're doing with this?

                            Art is the handmaid of human good.

                            by joe from Lowell on Tue Aug 06, 2013 at 02:58:50 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  the numbers leaked (3+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            JesseCW, corvo, divineorder

                            By Manning puts the lie to public claims.  Turns out there was a body count.  I don't have a link, sorry.

                            Also the link above should make you skeptical if you weren't already.  

                            Bad things aren't bad! And anyway, there's mitigation!

                            by Nada Lemming on Tue Aug 06, 2013 at 03:30:22 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  These aren't "public claims." This is the BIJ. (0+ / 0-)

                            The numbers I provided are from an anti-drone outfit that generates its own numbers. If you'd bothered to click the link, you'd discover that they describe their methodology.

                            You're sitting here telling someone who didn't use government numbers that I shouldn't use government numbers.

                            Uh....thanks? The "link above" - you mean MY LINK, the one I'M getting my numbers from - should make me skeptical of the numbers I'm using?

                            Um no.

                            Art is the handmaid of human good.

                            by joe from Lowell on Tue Aug 06, 2013 at 03:34:06 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  No the link (4+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            poligirl, corvo, barleystraw, divineorder

                            To the covered up war crimes.  Your link is just outdated, not wrong.  And they are conservative.   Stuff is moving faster than people can update their webpage.  Leak leak leak.  This will take months to sort out.  

                            Bad things aren't bad! And anyway, there's mitigation!

                            by Nada Lemming on Tue Aug 06, 2013 at 03:46:53 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Updated numbers: (0+ / 0-)

                            The BIJ estimates between 4-40 civilian deaths in all of 2012, and 0-4 so far in 2013.

                            Both of which support what I wrote about the declining numbers of civilian deaths, the declining rate of civilian deaths, and the worst years being 2006 and 2009.

                            I'm not even sure what your link is supposed to have to do with my point. Most of the strikes discussed in it took place prior to the Pakistan summary I linked to, and were already counted in those figures.

                            Art is the handmaid of human good.

                            by joe from Lowell on Tue Aug 06, 2013 at 04:05:19 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Updated numbers: (0+ / 0-)

                            The BIJ estimates that there were between 4 and 40 civilian deaths in all of 2012 (most of which were already included in the numbers I linked to), and between 0 and 4 so far in 2013.

                            Most of the alleged "double tap" strikes in your link took place before the tabulation in the link I provided, and were already included therein.

                            BTW, did you notice that even the BIJ acknowledges that most of the "double tap" strikes don't kill any civilians?

                            Art is the handmaid of human good.

                            by joe from Lowell on Tue Aug 06, 2013 at 04:08:24 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Yes (3+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            JesseCW, corvo, divineorder

                            Buy your characterization of that organization is not how I would characterize them.   But I shall not belabor it as we're at cross purposes.The truth will out soon enough.  

                            Bad things aren't bad! And anyway, there's mitigation!

                            by Nada Lemming on Tue Aug 06, 2013 at 04:17:33 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  "An anti-drone outfit" is my characterization. (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            divineorder

                            To rebut me, you link to a story in which the BIJ accuses the U.S. of committing war crimes in the drone campaign.

                            I'm not exactly sure what "truth" you think is going to "out." The BIJ has been looking closely at drone strikes for years. If there were a whole bunch of additional civilian deaths that rebut the trend of declining deaths and declining death tolls, I doubt they would have missed them.

                            Art is the handmaid of human good.

                            by joe from Lowell on Tue Aug 06, 2013 at 04:23:03 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  joe (0+ / 0-)

                            I'm too lazy to rebut you to be honest.  So you win the internet for today.  

                            Bad things aren't bad! And anyway, there's mitigation!

                            by Nada Lemming on Tue Aug 06, 2013 at 04:53:50 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  no - that's not what i'm reading says. nt (0+ / 0-)

                            found

                            "The further a society drifts from truth, the more it will hate those that speak it." ~George Orwell "When it is dark enough, you can see the stars." ~Charles Beard

                            by poligirl on Tue Aug 06, 2013 at 05:05:54 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  i'm just saying i was surprised that it would be (3+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            JesseCW, corvo, barleystraw

                            used as a solid source to defend the admin's drone policy when if it's solid could be used to put the admin in a Hague worthy light as well....

                            not debating the numbers - still researching that - as it seems there are issues with the NAF's numbers and reading at the BIJ.

                            i was just surprised that that was used as a solid evidence source. still am...

                            "The further a society drifts from truth, the more it will hate those that speak it." ~George Orwell "When it is dark enough, you can see the stars." ~Charles Beard

                            by poligirl on Tue Aug 06, 2013 at 03:57:50 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I'm glad my honesty surprised you. (0+ / 0-)

                            It is a bit disturbing that you'd assume that I'd accept or reject evidence based on the source's general political orientation.

                            I gather that my methods differ from yours.

                            Art is the handmaid of human good.

                            by joe from Lowell on Tue Aug 06, 2013 at 04:25:17 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  well, if i accept a source as reliable, then i... (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            corvo

                            am going to accept that source as reliable unless roundly debunked with evidence.

                            if you were to do that, then you would consider the current article as reliable as well...

                            consistency of source is generally how i accept it - has nothing to do with political orientation. i'm not going to say a source is reliable on an issue just cuz it backs me on it and say it's not reliable when it doesn't back my beliefs...

                            i'm surprised cuz i generally put you into the defender category - perhaps wrongly - and to see you give credibility to a source that also says there is evidence that we are committing war crimes is something i never thought i'd see a defender put faith in.

                            my bad.

                            "The further a society drifts from truth, the more it will hate those that speak it." ~George Orwell "When it is dark enough, you can see the stars." ~Charles Beard

                            by poligirl on Tue Aug 06, 2013 at 04:49:57 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I don't do the internet faked laugh thing. (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            poligirl

                            I'm not LMAO or anything, but I do find it sort of amusing that my citation of the BIJ's numbers has caused you to suddenly doubt the group's credibility.

                            Art is the handmaid of human good.

                            by joe from Lowell on Tue Aug 06, 2013 at 04:38:47 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  no - i don't doubt their credibility cuz you cited (0+ / 0-)

                            them. in fact, they seem pretty credible. i am reading about some places that have issues with the NAF's numbers.

                            i never said i doubted their credibility; i said i was reading there now...

                            "The further a society drifts from truth, the more it will hate those that speak it." ~George Orwell "When it is dark enough, you can see the stars." ~Charles Beard

                            by poligirl on Tue Aug 06, 2013 at 04:52:05 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  i don't base something's credibility simply cuz (0+ / 0-)

                            someone i'm arguing with uses it as a source. i go fully check out the source and generally spend a lot of time reading - reading them, reading about them, reading criticisms and agreements with them, etc...

                            i was trained in journalism so i don't generally just take any thing at face value without some question.

                            "The further a society drifts from truth, the more it will hate those that speak it." ~George Orwell "When it is dark enough, you can see the stars." ~Charles Beard

                            by poligirl on Tue Aug 06, 2013 at 04:54:41 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                    •  I know the policy you're talking about... (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Reggid

                      the "Bomb Damage Assessment" technique outlined in the NYT story about the drone campaigns.

                      But it doesn't really relevant to this question, because that isn't the technique used by the government when it estimates civilian casualties. It's the technique used to determine whether a particular strike was successful at hitting the enemy.

                      Think of it as being like the difference between the jobs numbers (employer interviews) and the unemployment rate (residential interviews). Two different sets of data collected and used in different ways.

                      Art is the handmaid of human good.

                      by joe from Lowell on Tue Aug 06, 2013 at 01:17:41 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                    •  If you're a male, (6+ / 0-)

                      old enough to carry a weapon and killed in a drone strike, you're a terrorist until proven otherwise. Guilt by proximity.


                      "Information is power. But like all power there are those who want to keep it for themselves" Aaron Swartz, 1986 - 2013
                      TheStarsHollowGazette.com

                      by TheMomCat on Tue Aug 06, 2013 at 02:31:37 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  These aren't governmentt numbers. (0+ / 0-)

                        The Bureau of Investigative Journalism is a stridently anti-drone outfit.

                        I'm afraid you're just going to have to face the sad truth that things are not as bad are you hope.

                        Art is the handmaid of human good.

                        by joe from Lowell on Tue Aug 06, 2013 at 03:04:54 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  That isn't my definition (0+ / 0-)

                          of who is labeled a terrorist, it's the current government's.

                          The failure to safeguard children and civilians is a violation of the Fourth Geneva Convention, in other words, a war crime.

                          But you keep on believing that things are just hunky dory.


                          "Information is power. But like all power there are those who want to keep it for themselves" Aaron Swartz, 1986 - 2013
                          TheStarsHollowGazette.com

                          by TheMomCat on Tue Aug 06, 2013 at 06:32:03 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

              •  Yes. Creating terrorist, a policy you support, (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                poligirl, corvo

                isn't replacing arresting and detaining people without trial on the sketchiest of evidence.

                It's replacing NOT creating terrorist.

                Mr. Universe is a known degenerate Robotophile, and his sources include former Browncoat Traitors. What is their agenda in leaking top secret information about the Reavers and endangering us all?

                by JesseCW on Tue Aug 06, 2013 at 02:44:14 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  You are such a hack. (0+ / 1-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Hidden by:
                  gooderservice

                  What kind of person do you think is going read "creating terrorists, a policy  you support," and conclude, "Wow, that guy sure is someone I'm going to pat attention to?"

                  Keep it up Jesse. Try to take it a little easier, though, or people are going to start thinking I'm paying you to make me look better.

                  Art is the handmaid of human good.

                  by joe from Lowell on Tue Aug 06, 2013 at 03:06:19 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Anyone who sees Muslims as completely (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    corvo, barleystraw

                    human is already disgusted by your track record here.

                    You don't have credibility to lose.  You nakedly and wholeheartedly support the bombing of civilian villages.

                    Calling out monsters by their proper names doesn't really make them look better.  Except, well, maybe to their fellow monsters.

                    Mr. Universe is a known degenerate Robotophile, and his sources include former Browncoat Traitors. What is their agenda in leaking top secret information about the Reavers and endangering us all?

                    by JesseCW on Tue Aug 06, 2013 at 04:30:41 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                •  Say, Jesse, since you're such an expert... (0+ / 0-)

                  on what creates terrorists, could you please name for me some of the terrorists who attacked the U.S. after drone strikes?

                  If air strikes create terrorists, then why is that none of the al Qaeda terrorists who have conducted attacks agains the United States - none, zero, not one - came from a country that has conducted air strikes? While the vast majority of them come from countries like Saudi Arabia, Egypt, the UAE, and other longtime American allies that have never, ever been subject to American air strikes?

                  And meanwhile, where are all of these Iraqi and Afghan terrorists you keep promising me?

                  Another possibility would be that you're talking out of your ass, and that the "airstrikes cause terrorism" theory needs to be filed next to the "poverty causes terrorism" theory, but that can't possibly be true, because JesseCW, who needs nothing but his own iron-clad sense of moral superiority to understand the world, says so.

                  Art is the handmaid of human good.

                  by joe from Lowell on Tue Aug 06, 2013 at 03:20:45 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Why would you come the US to attack the people (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    corvo, barleystraw

                    brutally murdering your women and children for sport when you can just hike over a few mountains and start shooting at them (or their proxies)?

                    Your "they just hate us because they're born evil" theory of "where terrorists come from" just doesn't hold water.

                    From what I've seen, you've never heard an excuse for the US to kill a Muslim you didn't want to repeat.

                    Mr. Universe is a known degenerate Robotophile, and his sources include former Browncoat Traitors. What is their agenda in leaking top secret information about the Reavers and endangering us all?

                    by JesseCW on Tue Aug 06, 2013 at 04:29:16 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  We left Iraq two years ago. (0+ / 0-)

                      Where are the Iraqi terrorists?

                      We're not in Iran, but we've hit Iranian targets any number of times over the years. Where are the Iranian terrorists?

                      Meanwhile, what's up with all of these Saudis, Kuwaitis, and Egyptians?

                      I've never offered a "they just hate us because they're born evil theory," so whack away at it all you want. I've merely noted that the evidence is stacked against your theory.

                      "Form what I've seen," coming from you, is quite possibly the world's worst argument. You've just asserted that an opponent of the Iraq War had never heard of an excuse to kill Muslims that I didn't want to repeat.

                      You are in so over your head.

                      Art is the handmaid of human good.

                      by joe from Lowell on Tue Aug 06, 2013 at 04:43:00 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Yeah, I've never bought the ... (0+ / 0-)

                        ... "creating terrorists" meme because of a number of reasons, joe from Lowell, including the fact that the meme started from journalists' interviews with ... terrorists! They're not exactly the least-interested parties. Moreover, when you think about it, why wouldn't the terrorists say this to try to keep from getting targeted by drones? Potentially very self-serving "testimony."

                        Additionally, I wanted to see some actual research. Where are the numbers? Where is, even, a single anecdotal example of this maxim? Doesn't exist.

                        The meme, I think, has been as successful as it has been because of movies like the Charles Bronson Death Wish genre and The Godfather trilogy. But, just because something makes a good storyline for a movie doesn't make it a common occurrence in real life. In fact, I'd suggest that, because it is so rare in real life, that's what makes it a good storyline for a movie.

                        I would tip you, but the man took away my tips.

                        by Tortmaster on Tue Aug 06, 2013 at 11:19:34 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

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