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View Diary: Liberal Racism? Charlie Rangel was Wrong to Call the Tea Party a Bunch of "White Crackers" (228 comments)

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  •  The old saying actually went (4+ / 0-)

    "The exception tests the rule."

    Asking with no intention of pushing back, just want to know: Do you really think most of us white liberals will, when push comes to shove, protect our privilege at your expense?

    "Much of movement conservatism is a con and the base is the marks." -- Chris Hayes

    by raptavio on Tue Aug 06, 2013 at 12:59:09 PM PDT

    [ Parent ]

      •  Answer the question... (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        allergywoman

        ...without a Socratic dodge.

        Do you believe that most of us white liberals will ultimately protect our privilege at your expense?

        The word "parent" is supposed to be a VERB, people...

        by wesmorgan1 on Tue Aug 06, 2013 at 01:22:37 PM PDT

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          •  Thanks for the straight answer. (0+ / 0-)

            Can you give some examples, maybe, of where you've seen this happen in your world? Or even better, on Daily Kos?

            I'm not, by the way, looking to challenge you. My aim is to learn your perspective.

            "Much of movement conservatism is a con and the base is the marks." -- Chris Hayes

            by raptavio on Tue Aug 06, 2013 at 01:38:04 PM PDT

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            •  If every human on the planet had the same ... (0+ / 0-)

              skin coloring, individuals would still find some way to contrast themselves against every other person they might be compared to and come up with some element about themselves that would support their belief that they're not inferior to the other person.  It's the human need to be competitive, to see themselves as superior to others in one way or another, that's the crux of the problem.

              No doubt many will adamantly claim that "I'm not like that", but I've yet to meet a single human who would say (and believe) "I'm inferior to every other person in every possible way, and knowing that doesn't bother me in the slightest".  In other words, until humans evolve past needing to compare themselves to others, little will change.

              "Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity, and I am not sure about the universe." -- Albert Einstein

              by Neuroptimalian on Tue Aug 06, 2013 at 03:02:06 PM PDT

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              •  I'm going to (0+ / 0-)

                be more optimistic than that.

                Full equality is an ideal that you and I, certainly, will never see reached, and perhaps none of our descendants, but I believe we can and will continue to make progress toward that goal.

                "Much of movement conservatism is a con and the base is the marks." -- Chris Hayes

                by raptavio on Tue Aug 06, 2013 at 03:21:34 PM PDT

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            •  your world? you mean the real world? (3+ / 0-)

              Lots of examples. And taking your question seriously. The potential of the Populist movement was derailed by white racism, when the movement went North and began to take on housing segregation and wealth inequality many theretofore white liberals abandoned it if not turned against, organizing during the 1930s by white leftists who were unable to understand black folks concerns about white supremacy and wanted it subsumed by a class struggle that ignored such particulars, organizing in particular trades/labor markets in the South and the Southwest, Bacon's Rebellion could be viewed through that lens, etc. etc. etc.

              "White liberals" are not immune from white racism, the wages of whiteness, and white supremacy. They just play the game differently. Look at the post civil rights era and the triumph of the politics of colorblindness and how that effectively neutered black justice claims--and how yes, many "liberals" on issue specifics side with protecting Whiteness as a type of property as opposed to any real engagement with the justice claims of non-whites and how to effectively craft policies to redistribute resources and create more opportunities.

              •  When I say "your world" (0+ / 0-)

                I mean the world of your individual experience (so, y'know, a metaphorical 'world' rather than a literal one).

                "Much of movement conservatism is a con and the base is the marks." -- Chris Hayes

                by raptavio on Tue Aug 06, 2013 at 07:53:03 PM PDT

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              •  White racism has been a factor in (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Larsstephens, a2nite

                the failure of feminism, the demise of unions, the erosion of public education, and pretty much every other lost good idea to roll into the schoolyard since the civil war.  I think it owes its persistence to a fear of retribution, an honest, gut feeling that, given the opportunity, blacks would reciprocate the hospitality they have endured.  That projection-fear is a subtext, for the most part, buried under tons of bullshit/bravado.  

                Unfortunately, until white people as a group wise up to the damage it does, things will probably continue unpleasant.

                It's been a long haul, no end in sight.

          •  yes, but it is difficult to (4+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            mimi, Ian Reifowitz, AoT, Catesby

            consistently draw a distinction between protecting white privilege at the expense of people of color, and protecting privilege at the expense of the not-so-privileged.  

            Ultimately, protecting privilege is a human characteristic that has nothing to do with race.  It just happens that privilege in this Country is granted based on race.  That's not true everywhere all the time.  Not even here in the US.

            Fundamentally, that seems to be the point that everyone trips over - the denial or trivialization of "white privilege" because privilege is not necessarily race based . . . except when it is.

            "None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free." - Goethe

            by jlynne on Tue Aug 06, 2013 at 01:47:41 PM PDT

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          •  I appreciate the straightforward answer. (0+ / 0-)

            The word "parent" is supposed to be a VERB, people...

            by wesmorgan1 on Tue Aug 06, 2013 at 02:55:42 PM PDT

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        •  And would giving up that privilege entail (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Neuroptimalian

          turning over (to whom?) any money or income, say, above the national median amount? Above the median amount for African-Americans? Because that privilege is another form of privilege.

          I don't even really understand how to give up the privilege of, say, not being followed in a store because someone thinks I'm shoplifting, or give up the privilege of, say, fair treatment by the police. How would I do that? Seriously.

          As for the privilege regarding the way one talks about racism, it seems as if the suggestion is that I could give up the privilege by simply never talking about racism or race in America again, and just recognize that my point of view is tainted by privilege. Explain how my doing that would actively help black people in America. Seriously.

      •  you have to ask that question regarding each (0+ / 0-)

        person you interact with, to determine whether they are on your side or not.

        Otherwise, how do you build alliances?

    •  Most every person will protect their (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Richard Lyon, jlynne, Ian Reifowitz

      privilege at the expense of an out group. It's the normal operating mode for humans. Particularly progressive or justice minded people will refuse to actively and knowingly impose their privilege on others, but privilege is mostly invisible to people who have it.

      If you get chosen for a job over a black candidate do you know? Does that make it not an issue of privilege? If your child has a choice between a public school or a charter school and abandoning the public school means it will be worse and your child better off, what would you do? Mostly white liberals will compromise on some things and not on others. But the sum total means that they are still reinforcing a racist system.

      If debt were a moral issue then, lacking morals, corporations could never be in debt.

      by AoT on Tue Aug 06, 2013 at 01:21:30 PM PDT

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      •  Well, (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        AoT, Richard Lyon, Ian Reifowitz, Catesby

        I don't trust charter schools, and my kids went to public school except for pre-K -- the preschool which they attended was the same as the preschool I attended, with the same teachers, so it was more of a, nostalgia thing?

        But yes, everything you said I understand and am already aware. It's very hard to recognize privilege because it's usually only conspicuous by its absence.

        "Much of movement conservatism is a con and the base is the marks." -- Chris Hayes

        by raptavio on Tue Aug 06, 2013 at 01:40:24 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Well, you're obviously better informed than most (4+ / 0-)

          on the subject of charter schools. So much propaganda.

          And for context in this conversation, I'm white and I've seen it happen so often where people who are otherwise liberal and then go and do some privilege reinforcing crap. It's really a reflexive activity for the most part. people who take the effort to be aware of their privilege, you and me, are more likely to feel bad about privileged stuff, and less likely to do the big stuff. As long as the person in question is actually concerned with anti-racism and not just concerned with appearing to be anti-racist.

          If debt were a moral issue then, lacking morals, corporations could never be in debt.

          by AoT on Tue Aug 06, 2013 at 01:51:18 PM PDT

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          •  The problem is (0+ / 0-)

            that I think to some degree we will always be unaware of some aspects of privilege -- sorry for repeating myself, but many if not most aspects of privilege are only conspicuous, in fact only even noticeable, by their absence.

            The best we can do is try to recognize it where we can, and be aware that we will not recognize it everywhere it exists.

            Now, the difficult part of this is that on the other side of the coin there are going to be claims of privilege where it doesn't exist. But I figure, so what? Take the claims seriously and if they're unfounded or invalid, what do I lose by assuming they're valid?

            "Much of movement conservatism is a con and the base is the marks." -- Chris Hayes

            by raptavio on Tue Aug 06, 2013 at 02:18:44 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  We can deal with the potential (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              raptavio

              false claims of privilege on a case by case basis. We already do when it comes to men's rights advocates. The only one I can think of right now that would be a possibility for discussion, and please let's not derail this diary by actually discussing it, is the issues around spying and privilege. But other than that I can't think of a single time there's been any need for the conversation beyond dismissing white whiners or MRAs.

              If debt were a moral issue then, lacking morals, corporations could never be in debt.

              by AoT on Tue Aug 06, 2013 at 02:35:53 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

      •  what you said. (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        AoT, Ian Reifowitz

        "None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free." - Goethe

        by jlynne on Tue Aug 06, 2013 at 01:50:02 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

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