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View Diary: Three Cheers for the Small Town Cop Who Refused to Call Child-on-Child Shooting Accidental (265 comments)

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  •  I think NRA will defend (12+ / 0-)

    I am willing to bet dollars to doughnuts that the NRA and the gun lobby in general would attempt to derail any law that said any shooting should be followed up by blood and urine tests for alcohol and drugs.

    I think they would fight those laws the same way they fight against waiting periods, registries of gun owners, background checks for gun purchases, etc.

    While I agree the gun industry is primarily concerned about selling lots of guns to make greater profits for themselves, I think selling lots of guns also means making gun use easier and without consequences (cf stand your ground laws which decriminalize lethal gun use).

    "The fool doth think he is wise: the wise man knows himself to be a fool" - W. Shakespeare

    by Hugh Jim Bissell on Thu Aug 08, 2013 at 03:03:59 PM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  It took decades of research before the nexus (7+ / 0-)

      of alcohol impairment and driving could be subject to mandatory evidence collection.

      We have a long road.

      Progress will have to start at the state level.

      "They did not succeed in taking away our voice" - Angelique Kidjo - Opening the Lightning In a Bottle concert at Radio City Music Hall in New York City - 2003

      by LilithGardener on Thu Aug 08, 2013 at 03:27:57 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  i would test positive for prescription drugs, (7+ / 0-)

      should I be firearms disabled just because my body is broken?

      hell that's the reason I carry......

      Do we add a disability on top of a disability (and yes, that is the proper term) just because I happen to be a CP patient?  Heavily monitored btw and with multiple docs who have offered to testify, should I ever need it, on state of intoxication, even though I take enough daily to drop a horse......

      Vaya con Dios Don Alejo
      I want to die a slave to principles. Not to men.
      Emiliano Zapata

      by buddabelly on Thu Aug 08, 2013 at 05:15:42 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  thanks for speaking up for the gimps (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        buddabelly, ban nock, Bright

        while i'm sympathetic to the sentiment, I wish I could type enough to express my disgust at the idea that people should arbitrarily lose civil rights because they are receiving medical treatment.

        •  someone has to, the only reason I had the time (2+ / 0-)

          to get involved here was my last injury.  Plus I have the puter set up for flat posting...

          This shit really pisses me off as a cp patient.  I take lots of opioid drugs daily.  I wish they got me high...no such luck... I guess I could take double my normal dose for a few days and enjoy the high then suffer the rest of the month....not how I tend to think or act...probably the same reason I have 5-6 months of food and a month or so of water including the critters.....

          I like being prepared......funny, same reason I carry daily and have charged fire extinguishers....hope to Ghu I never need any of my preparation........

          Vaya con Dios Don Alejo
          I want to die a slave to principles. Not to men.
          Emiliano Zapata

          by buddabelly on Thu Aug 08, 2013 at 07:00:00 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Opioids and guns (4+ / 0-)

            It just so happens I have advanced training and experience with long-term opioid treatment for illnesses.  I have published a number of peer-reviewed research studies on the long-term use of opioids.

            I have meet with thousands like yourself who take high doses of methadone on a daily basis.  Many of these people worked full-time: as bus drivers, business owners, as computer programmers, and doing intensive manual labor.  Most of these patients have no ill effects from taking daily doses of opioids that would kill opiate-naive patients.

            I have great sympathy for your struggles with CP.

            But where guns are concerned, the misuse of your gun could result in causing a worse injury or even death to another.  Surely that is not what you seek.

            I would hope in your sturggles to be like everyone else that you do not seek to inflict the same level of injury or death as so many "healthy" gun users (there are over 100,000 Americans shot every year!!).

            Would you oppose a law that says anytime a law enforcement oficer is investigating a gun discharge, that the officer be mandated to take blood and urine samples from the gun owner and whoever discharged the gun?

            "The fool doth think he is wise: the wise man knows himself to be a fool" - W. Shakespeare

            by Hugh Jim Bissell on Fri Aug 09, 2013 at 06:57:31 AM PDT

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            •  Interesting, (2+ / 0-)

              I thought the majority opinion in the medical community was that opoids were ineffective for managing long-term chronic pain.

              "I don't want a unicorn. I want a fucking pegasus. And I want it to carry a flaming sword." -mahakali overdrive

              by Silvia Nightshade on Fri Aug 09, 2013 at 08:27:29 AM PDT

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              •  Opiods have there uses (5+ / 0-)

                Like every medical treatment known to man, opiates have their benefits, and have their disadvantages

                In using any treatment, the benefits must be weighed against the risks and possible harm.

                The medical treatments for long-term pain are pretty meager.  Opiates are not perfect, but treatment with opiates is generally better than continued misery.

                A lot depends on the disorder causing the pain, the disability the pain causes the patient, and the patient themselves.

                "The fool doth think he is wise: the wise man knows himself to be a fool" - W. Shakespeare

                by Hugh Jim Bissell on Fri Aug 09, 2013 at 08:53:30 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

            •  Oh, forgot to add: (4+ / 0-)

              we also drug test (in many states) workers who are injured on the job.  That's both blood and urine.  So we'll test injured workers to make sure they are on the up and up, but shoot someone and eh, we'll call it an accident and go home.  Wonderful.

              "I don't want a unicorn. I want a fucking pegasus. And I want it to carry a flaming sword." -mahakali overdrive

              by Silvia Nightshade on Fri Aug 09, 2013 at 08:28:31 AM PDT

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            •  correct, misuse would be a problem but a (0+ / 0-)

              nonexistent one as I am trained, was a shooter and reloader long before the injuries and as you well know, when a person is actually in pain and on a stable dose of time release there really is no high involved.  Thus nothing to create a possible problem.

              If I am safe enough to drive I am safe enough to carry and not only have I not had an accident in 20 years I haven't even had a moving violation in over ten and that was for 7 over......I can pass any sobriety test a person would care to administer and as I said, have multiple doctors to back it up including my neurosurgeon, my gp and the ortho consult....hell even the pain clinic agreed and they are tough cookies.....

              If my doctors have no concern over my carry habits, you needn't worry.

              As to testing, I wouldn't care as long as those who like me are on a legal dose of prescribed medication with no visible signs of intoxication don't have trouble just due to blood levels.   However the officer has no place taking any medical sample.  That needs to be done by a medical professional and chain of custody fully secured.  Too many cops willing to plant evidence to blindly say sure go ahead......saw one get caught on security cam just the other day planting a nice little rock of coke...about a gram, just enough to get someone serious trouble....

              Vaya con Dios Don Alejo
              I want to die a slave to principles. Not to men.
              Emiliano Zapata

              by buddabelly on Fri Aug 09, 2013 at 10:34:49 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  God bless (3+ / 0-)

                You are quite correct that when opiate medications are used correctly for pain control, there is no "high".

                But you have to acknowledge, as anyone knowledgable about opiates does, that opiates 1) have powerful psychoactive effects; and 2) can be, and often are, abused by the people taking them.

                So, you take prescribed opiate medications and you want to own and use a gun; I say "God bless".  But, if you or your gun is used in a shooting, and you are found to have a psychoactive substance in your blood or urine, then I say you deserve to be sanctioned for poor judgement and acting in a way to endanger others.

                If you think this is unfair to you, imagine how those at the receiving end of your gun might feel.

                You are concerned about how others perceive you and your medication use.  You should be.  Perhaps the best way to ensure that all those who take opiates fall under a shadow of unreasonable public suspicion is to take opiates and then use your gun irresponsibly, or allow your gun to be used irresponsibly by others.

                "The fool doth think he is wise: the wise man knows himself to be a fool" - W. Shakespeare

                by Hugh Jim Bissell on Fri Aug 09, 2013 at 10:53:31 AM PDT

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                •  they certainly can be abused, I however do not (0+ / 0-)

                  abuse them.  I haven't even had a dosage increase in 2+ years as I am still getting semi decent pain control at current levels and as this is never going away without some type of miracle medical breakthrough, I am very conscious to the need to keep levels as low as possible, as long as possible.

                  Also you keep assuming that I or someone else will use one of my firearms "irresponsibly"   Not sure where you get that idea as I have never given any indication that I do....As a matter of fact I am as hard on negligent discharges as anyone and harder than most...I have never believed in so called accidental shooting, and have said so many times here....there can be mechanical malfunction as I had happen once but 99% of the time it is a negligent discharge usually because a person is unfamiliar with guns in general or that gun in particular.  With a mechanical failure, the rest of the safety rules cover you so nothing bad happens.  This is why the great majority of us are religious about following the safety rules.

                  A good shoot is a good shoot whether I have my daily medication in my bloodstream or not....just like a bad shoot doesn't magically become good just because a person doesn't take prescription medication......The idea that simply having a chemical in my blood with absolutely no signs of impairment or "irresponsibility" would change that dynamic is ridiculous.  I didn't give up any of my civil rights when I became disabled and have no intention of doing so now.  And Federal law recognizes that fact...only illegal drug use or addiction is a disqualifying issue or if my problem was psychiatric instead of physical and I had been involuntarily committed to a in-patient psych ward/hospital....

                  I am quite confident in both my abilities to control both situations and my firearms.  I have no children at home any more and the grandbabies are either in another state or too young to handle my terrier pack so I go there to visit until he's a little older....When the time comes, I'll pass down to him a pristine 1930's Winchester single shot .22 and teach him to shoot safely just like I did my kids.....

                  It will live in my safe until he is 18 and has proven himself of course but by 18 if anything like the rest of the Fam, he will have that .22 a pump shotgun and a medium power hunting cartridge like say a .243 or similar.......And will be fully safety trained long before he ever touches one of them and very closely supervised, literally touching him so I can stop a problem if anything dumb is done....I found with my girls, the best punishment for breaking a safety rule was pulling shooting rights until they reprove themselves.....

                  Vaya con Dios Don Alejo
                  I want to die a slave to principles. Not to men.
                  Emiliano Zapata

                  by buddabelly on Fri Aug 09, 2013 at 02:18:27 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Humans are error-prone; we screw things up (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    kmfmstar

                    I don't actually assume anything about you other than what you have told me about yourself is true.

                    I don't know whether you are safety conscious or not; I don't know what you do with your guns; I don't know what kind of training you have received.

                    I do know that you are a human, and I do know that humans make errors, mistakes, and screw things up.  On a regular basis.  Currently, there are two authors right here on dkos who publish weekly lists of errors and mistakes made by people with guns.  And because guns (unlike any other consumer goods) are purpose-build to main and kill living things, the results of these mistakes are often bloody and irreversible, and too often deadly.  And in looking through such lists of mistakes made with guns, you will be amazed how often the perpetrator is someone with extensive training in safe gun use, or someone who handles a gun everyday.

                    I am glad to hear that you are safety conscious and careful.  And I am glad to hear that you have not had any mistakes with your guns yet (YET btw stands for Your Eligible Too).  But because you are human, and because humans are error-prone, I know you too could be a person making a mistake with a gun.

                    The reality - backed by empiric studies - is that regular use of opiates alters human thinking and perceptions.  George Zimmerman had prescriptions for amphetamines and beznodiazepines at the time he shot Trevyon Martin.  He of course denied being "high", but amphetamines and benzodiazepines both can cause paranoia, disordered cognition, errors of judgement, and aggressive behavior.  

                    Sadly, it was Treyvon Martin who lost his rights, not the guy handling the gun.  George Zimmerman may not have been "high" that night, but his behaviors are characteristic of someone under the influence.

                    American like myself have MANY good reasons to worry about the deadly consequences of mixing guns and drugs.

                    "The fool doth think he is wise: the wise man knows himself to be a fool" - W. Shakespeare

                    by Hugh Jim Bissell on Fri Aug 09, 2013 at 03:46:42 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  and should I so choose, I could post a diary every (0+ / 0-)

                      time they do listing nothing but defensive gun uses that were good clean shoots.

                      Of course people make mistakes...That's why the 4 rules exist to cover you in the event you do make a mistake....as long as you follow all of them, even a negligent discharge will hurt no one as the weapon is always pointed in a safe direction.

                      Everythiong we ingest has the possibility to

                      alter human thinking and perceptions
                      including caffeine, nicotine and even sugar.  Food and drink can create problems....in fact the most problems period are from those who drink and handle firearms at the same time....just like the great majority of rattlesnake bites are drunk males under 40........

                      There is nothing to fear from any CP patient who is actually using their meds as prescribed......I'd be a lot more worried over people taking SSRI anti-depressants......

                      Vaya con Dios Don Alejo
                      I want to die a slave to principles. Not to men.
                      Emiliano Zapata

                      by buddabelly on Sat Aug 10, 2013 at 07:24:26 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

      •  Are you denied use of a car? (5+ / 0-)

        My suggestion is that the law not prevent you from legally owning or using a gun if you take prescription medication.  My suggestion is the law only prohibit you from using your gun while impaired.

        If your medication does not cause mental or physical impairment, you may use guns freely.  If however, you take Adderal or Restoril (medications such as those prescribed to Zimmerman, which are know to cause confusion, reduced cognition, paranoia, aggressive behaviors, reduced insight and judgement), or any of the thousands of psychoactive substances available,  AND your gun is used in an "acciental" or intentional shooting, your blood and urine should be checked and if you are found to be under the influence, then you lose your license and your guns.

        Such a law does not punish you by virtue of your illness.  It would only punish you for using poor judgement and acting dangerously.

        If your illness or the treatment thereof renders you incapable of controlling your behaviors or your thinking, you should not own or use a gun.

        "The fool doth think he is wise: the wise man knows himself to be a fool" - W. Shakespeare

        by Hugh Jim Bissell on Fri Aug 09, 2013 at 06:37:47 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  It took decades of research before a legal (2+ / 0-)

          definition of alcohol impaired driving was established. We must do the corresponding research on impaired gun use.

          We need to study the effect of impairment:

          Studies of accuracy in shooting a target, both stationary and moving targets.

          Studies in how quickly the response time degrades.

          Studies in shooting under stress.

          Studies in how an impaired shooter can remember what happened.

          "They did not succeed in taking away our voice" - Angelique Kidjo - Opening the Lightning In a Bottle concert at Radio City Music Hall in New York City - 2003

          by LilithGardener on Fri Aug 09, 2013 at 10:31:22 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  No (4+ / 0-)

            1)  In the case of alcohol and automobile use, part of the reason it took so long was because of efforts by both the beverage industry and the automobile industry to prevent any laws prohibiting drinking and driving (in order to safeguard their financial stakes).

            2)  Medical science knows very little about how the brain normally works, and knows even less about the psychoactive effects of medications and how to measure those.   We are shooting over 100,000 Americans every year, and every year over 30,000 of those die of their gunshot injuries.  Every year of delay is deadly - quite literally.  I therefore suggest that we NOT wait.  

            3) Similar delaying tactics have been used by the petroleum and coal industry on the question of climate change to ensure nothing at all is done to reduce greenhouse gases, and have increased the danger to future generations.  Our neighbors and fellow citizens deserve better than inaction on dangerous activities simply to ensure high profits for certain industries.

            4) Your suggested research about accuracy, reaction times, effects of stress, and memory are all good things to know about, independent of the effects of drugs and alcohol.  Given that we don't even know these things about gun operators who are not using drugs and alcohol, this is work to be done.  But not a reason to allow gun owners and users to endanger others by allowing alcohol, drugs, and "gun play".

            "The fool doth think he is wise: the wise man knows himself to be a fool" - W. Shakespeare

            by Hugh Jim Bissell on Fri Aug 09, 2013 at 11:32:46 AM PDT

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            •  I'm not suggessting that gun reform laws wait (2+ / 0-)

              just that studies are needed to support what we already know.

              "They did not succeed in taking away our voice" - Angelique Kidjo - Opening the Lightning In a Bottle concert at Radio City Music Hall in New York City - 2003

              by LilithGardener on Fri Aug 09, 2013 at 11:38:52 AM PDT

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              •  And I agree (2+ / 0-)

                I agree that more research and investigation should be done.

                And I agree that laws sanctioning "impaired gun use" should be enacted as quickly as possible - including a lws to mandate blood and urine testing for those involved in any shooting incident where the polcie are called.

                "The fool doth think he is wise: the wise man knows himself to be a fool" - W. Shakespeare

                by Hugh Jim Bissell on Fri Aug 09, 2013 at 11:53:53 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

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