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View Diary: Police Are Beating Teachers At ALEC Protest (185 comments)

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  •  bullshit. give a link. (2+ / 1-)
    Recommended by:
    zenbassoon, VClib
    Hidden by:
    elwior
    •  Google Occupy Wall Street (12+ / 0-)

      There were many, many negotiations with the city over permits, most ending favorably until the barons of Wall Street grew tired of their protests.

      Here's some from our area

      Occupy Cleveland says permits renewed

      Permit extended for "Occupy Cleveland"

      Keep in mind, not all forms of public action require a permit. Whether you're armed Tea Party nutjobs or peaceful protestors.

      "The international world is wondering what happened to America's great heart and soul." Helen Thomas

      by Betty Pinson on Thu Aug 08, 2013 at 04:32:55 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  And that's why Occupy Cleveland was allowed to (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        slothlax, zenbassoon, VClib

        stay during the pendency of the permit.  There's nothing complicated about this: when people get permits, they can do what the permit allows.

        •  As was Occupy Wall Street, etc. etc etc (13+ / 0-)

          So your argument doesn't hold water.  Liberals who engage in public action are held to a different standard by Wall Street than armed right wing Tea Party folks.

          Can you imagine the violence by police if liberal protestors showed up armed to the teeth?

          "The international world is wondering what happened to America's great heart and soul." Helen Thomas

          by Betty Pinson on Thu Aug 08, 2013 at 04:41:04 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Betty - no one, including Tea Party groups (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Sparhawk, zenbassoon

            can bring weapons to a group meeting in a city that doesn't allow open carry. If they do they will be arrested. Most of the pictures I saw of armed Tea Party members, the armed individuals were standing next to the police.

            "let's talk about that"

            by VClib on Thu Aug 08, 2013 at 11:54:00 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  Occupy wall street was legally occupying (15+ / 0-)

          Zuccotti park until the city and the corporation that owned it illegally kicked them out. They changed the law part way through the occupation and then kicked them out after that. Even though the judge ruled against the city the city has not allowed them back in the park permanently.

          You aren't a lawyer and you're regularly wrong on these issues. You simply spout "permits" and "time, place, manner" again and again.

          If debt were a moral issue then, lacking morals, corporations could never be in debt.

          by AoT on Thu Aug 08, 2013 at 05:00:50 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  AoT - actually johnny is a lawyer (0+ / 0-)

            and lived in NYC during OWS.

            "let's talk about that"

            by VClib on Thu Aug 08, 2013 at 08:45:48 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  To quote Dick Cheney: (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Tonedevil

              "So?"

              "We the People of the United States...." -U.S. Constitution

              by elwior on Thu Aug 08, 2013 at 09:50:31 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  AoT wrote that johnny isn't a lawer (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                andalusi, AoT, zenbassoon

                johnny is a lawyer. That was my point.

                "let's talk about that"

                by VClib on Fri Aug 09, 2013 at 12:08:37 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  He is certainly outside his area of law (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Tonedevil

                  quite often then. And he should know better than to make the sort of broad legal proclamations that he does on a regular basis. He doesn't have a knowledge of the law like other lawyers here do, any of them. He's also regularly wrong about the law, which is why I assumed he isn't actually a lawyer.

                  If debt were a moral issue then, lacking morals, corporations could never be in debt.

                  by AoT on Fri Aug 09, 2013 at 09:34:42 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  While johnny is at times at odds with other (0+ / 0-)

                    lawyers here, they are most often in agreement with his views. He is a tax lawyer, and that is the area of his deepest domain expertise. He did some great work on Romney's returns which he shared with us.  While it's not an area where he practices he is most often correct on his First Amendment issues, which an area of strong interest for him.

                    We have a few lawyers here who somehow don't believe that six decades of time, place, manner restrictions, that are documented with a half dozen cases decided by the SCOTUS, are somehow constitutional.  johnny isn't one of them.

                    "let's talk about that"

                    by VClib on Fri Aug 09, 2013 at 12:00:47 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

          •  AoT - the legality of camping at Zuccotti (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Sparhawk, zenbassoon

            is a very interesting subject and one that had a lot of discussion here at DKOS while OWS was in the Park. And I know you were a big part of that. I wrote at the time that the selection of Zuccotti was brilliant because the space was a gray zone regarding the laws that governed the space. This created a lot of confusion at City Hall and the NYPD. However, once people started to make a semi-permanent living space, it clearly violated many NYC rules regarding sanitation and food preparation. The "owners" of Z didn't ever think people would camp there. My guess is that all of these "gray" park like areas in NYC and every other major city in the US now have a sign stating no overnight stays without a permit.

            "let's talk about that"

            by VClib on Fri Aug 09, 2013 at 12:15:54 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Zuccotti was an especially grey area (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Tonedevil

              Because it was one of the only places that I know of that actually had in it's "charter" that it had to be open 24 hours, whereas all the other POPS were set up so they closed for an hour a day.

              Either way, the city of New York illegally shut down the occupation against a ruling by a judge.

              If debt were a moral issue then, lacking morals, corporations could never be in debt.

              by AoT on Fri Aug 09, 2013 at 09:32:22 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Except that the "shut down" was illegal for (0+ / 0-)

                half a day? What difference did it really make? There was no way NYC was going to allow permanent camping in Z Park without proper sanitation or food preparation and storage. At the end the OWS group was violating numerous city ordinances.

                "let's talk about that"

                by VClib on Fri Aug 09, 2013 at 12:04:47 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  No, it was for much longer than half a day (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Tonedevil

                  They had a police cordon around it for like a week. And I understand why the camp was taken down, there were restrictions being violated. Of course, homeless people are forced to violate those restrictions on a regular basis if they want to be safe and warm.

                  But it was illegal to refuse entry for as long as they did, and it was illegal to retroactively change the rules.

                  If debt were a moral issue then, lacking morals, corporations could never be in debt.

                  by AoT on Fri Aug 09, 2013 at 12:14:43 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  It wasn't illegal to change the rules (0+ / 0-)

                    I remember reading the city rules on changing something like the 24hr rule at ZPark. They rules were burdensome, but there was a path to legally change the rules. Neither the "owner" nor the City of New York wanted camping in ZPark so they were going to shut down the camp due to code violations and/or going through the legal process to change the rules. The camp had run out of goodwill with the NYC administration, the NYPD, and the businesses, employees, and residents that surrounded ZPark.

                    OWS was a hell of a story while it was functioning, and changed the narrative for the 2012 elections.

                    "let's talk about that"

                    by VClib on Fri Aug 09, 2013 at 12:27:03 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  The courts rules that the change was (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Tonedevil

                      illegal if I remember correctly. It was seen as an attempt to change the time/place/manner restrictions in the course of a protest, which would be illegal.

                      If debt were a moral issue then, lacking morals, corporations could never be in debt.

                      by AoT on Fri Aug 09, 2013 at 12:57:26 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

    •  Uncalled for. (0+ / 0-)

      You owe BP an apology.

      "We the People of the United States...." -U.S. Constitution

      by elwior on Thu Aug 08, 2013 at 09:45:25 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

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