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View Diary: Obama Administration Delays Out-Of-Pocket Caps To Grant Insurance Companies Transition 'Relief' (308 comments)

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  •  There is no way to spin this latest (97+ / 0-)

    ACA curve ball/outrage. It is awful and indefensible.

    Several points.

    1. What's most disconcerting is that this piece of the law is one that will directly impact the out-of-pocket costs we are being told to shoulder.

    2. It's being blamed on another computer implementation issue.  This is a really hard sell--they've had four years to work through these problems.  I don't buy it.  It's another giveaway to the insurance and pharmaceutical industries.

    3. It seems to me that the legitimate complaint many Americans are going to have is that we are being required to buy very expensive insurance which we will not be able to afford to use, given the deductibles, co-pays etc. Having insurance is a vastly different beast than having access to quality and affordable health care.

    4. The other very dismal piece of this story is that the delay was buried in an obscure  Department of Labor FAQ bulletin--did the Administration think this would go unnoticed?

    •  In answer to your last question: probably. (12+ / 0-)

      Ou sont les neigedens d'antan?

      by SouthernLiberalinMD on Tue Aug 13, 2013 at 08:34:18 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I don't buy it either. It's nonsense. (22+ / 0-)

      I discussed the computer ridiculousness last evening in a diary discussing this same topic:

    •  The spin will end. (18+ / 0-)

      Unfortunately, it won't be until folks who buy coverage under Romneycare actually see what they are getting and how much it costs.

      I used to think that a critical mass would realize this is unworkable when they start signing up and writing checks at the end of this year.  Based on recent events, I think I may have underestimated people's ability to ignore things they don't want to think about.

      But at some point in 2014 or 2015, people are going to realize they are paying $5,000, $10,000, $15,000 a year for a $100 annual checkup and not much else.  The people getting a bad short term deal vastly outnumber the people getting a good deal by actuarial design.  That's only sustainable if people have A LOT of confidence that the program will take care of them when they need it.

      Nobody could possibly have confidence in the version of Romneycare that is being rolled out here.      

    •  PHARMA (13+ / 0-)

      I'm guessing PHARMA is also pissed--expensive biologics--remicade for example--will have to wait at least another year to charge new people $10k/2 months for treatments.  Many here don't realize that many autoimmune patients need to spend over $60k for treatment.  Johnson and Johnson was definitely not a winner on this.
      As for the computer bullshit--a third "system" could have been easily set up to coordinate benefits.  Instead of wimping out, the feds should have told insurers--if you're not ready, no new subscribers for you for 2 years.  Hardball is not difficult to learn.

      Under capitalism, man exploits man. Under communism, it's just the opposite. John Kenneth Galbraith .

      by melvynny on Tue Aug 13, 2013 at 09:30:47 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Computer issue is total BS (11+ / 0-)

      This requires one a few lines of code  maybe a 10 minute job not including compiling.

      “ Success has a great tendency to conceal and throw a veil over the evil of men. ” — Demosthenes

      by Dburn on Tue Aug 13, 2013 at 10:24:43 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I agree with the commenters who call bullshit on (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        bobtmn, qofdisks, enhydra lutris

        the computer excuse, but your response is bullshit as well.

        IT systems in insurance companies are complex. 10 minute job? Nothing is a 10 minute job.

        But 4 years is more than enough to accomplish just about anything.

        •  If the change would have SAVED (6+ / 0-)

          the insurance companies money, it would have been done in a day.

          "Nothing happens unless first a dream. " ~ Carl Sandburg

          by davewill on Tue Aug 13, 2013 at 10:55:01 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  ONLY if the people who should have been working (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          qofdisks, nchristine

          on this had STARTED four years ago - but look at the states who were so sure romney would win that they did nothing at all because "repeal obamacare"/romney/not gonna join the program governors sat on their asses and did absolutely nothing to make this work.

          they have sabotaged the process deliberately in hopes of getting the votes in congress and the senate to repeal the law because it will cost the insurance companies too much money and the american people would benefit from it.

          when the american people find out that they can actually get sick and not lose everything they own, they will not thank the republicans, they will thank the democrats - and that is what the republicans fear the most.

          social security - democrats.
          civil rights - democrats.
          medicare - democrats.
          aca - democrats.... but only if we defeat the repubicans over and over and over again.

          just look at what the right wing whacko supremes are "undoing" right now - those very same issues - voting rights, civil rights, abortion  on their calendar.

          so, the real question is when are WE going to lay blame at the feet of those responsible for this delay?  (hint: it ain't the democrats!)

          EdriesShop Is it kind? is it true? is it necessary?

          by edrie on Tue Aug 13, 2013 at 12:43:14 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  It depends on the system and the assholes (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          qofdisks, nyceve

          who work with it.

          It depends on the language, but it all comes down to databases . That's where the policy is stored along with the information. They may have triggers that have to be worked on and other calls. But , if they have a system that can cancel a policy by a certain  date IF payment hasn't been reached, then they can also plug in the code.

          There is such a thing as Object oriented code where complicated code can be reused and changes , additions and deletions can readily be made without making look-ups  through thousands of lines of source code .,

          In the end it is all about making calls to the underlying database . Maybe you are stuck back in the Cobol era and can't find any programming talent, but I can't think of any reason why a enterprise level modern computing system would have any difficulty making a change like that in four years, four days or four hours.

          Calling my response Bullshit just shows the kind of rigid thinking in a old fashioned IT shop that makes people leery of talking to IT assholes who immediately dismiss others opinion since they seem to think they are superior in some way. Get over yourself. I'll bet your a real DB to work with.

          “ Success has a great tendency to conceal and throw a veil over the evil of men. ” — Demosthenes

          by Dburn on Tue Aug 13, 2013 at 02:00:46 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Honey..... medical insurance programs have (0+ / 0-)

            been around for more than 40 years now.  To many companies are scared shitless to even think about moving to 'object oriented' systems.  Quite frankly, it's a bloody miracle any of it actually works anymore.  Then with piecemealing out 'units of work' and outsourcing to 'coding halls' in another country.....

            But, more than that.... the companies don't want to PAY for any upgrades in software!

            Otherwise agree, they had plenty of notice to get the changes into place by the end of this year.  They didn't prioritize correctly from a regulartory point, but did so from a financial point.

        •  While it *would* take more than 10 minutes, (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          nchristine, JVolvo

          there's absolutely no justification for:

          (1) its taking 3 1/2 years + 1 year extra just because his corporate "allies" were hoping PPACA would just fade away;

          (2) any further delay being made on the nearly broken backs of the poor and ill and elderly.

          Doesn't the President realize he's made us all look like suckers?  And even if he won't need my vote in the future, lots of Dems who've co-operated in this duplicity may want that vote some day.

          And that vote will not be forthcoming unless they change course now.

          (-7.62,-7.33) Carbon footprint 11.3 metric tons. l'Enfer, c'est les autres.

          by argomd on Tue Aug 13, 2013 at 02:17:41 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Not if you don't hire anybody to try because (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:

          no manager wants it coming out of their budget.

          That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt --

          by enhydra lutris on Tue Aug 13, 2013 at 03:08:29 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  I'm with you on your comment and I'm a programmer. (0+ / 0-)
      •  Ridiculous (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        3goldens, valion, nchristine

        There may be a huge amount of work involved, on top of what was already a huge amount of work preparing for 2014. And the companies may not have been able to start because the government took so long detailing the rules. I fault the government for that. Three years should have been enough for the biggest projects, but not if the requirements were still being worked out two and a half years in.

        We decided to move the center farther to the right by starting the whole debate from a far-right position to begin with. - Former House Majority Leader Tom DeLay

        by denise b on Tue Aug 13, 2013 at 11:36:38 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  then fault the correct area of government: (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:

          fault the republican governors, the republicans who keep voting on "repeals", romney (who promised to overturn it) as being the reason the republican states, the insurance companies, etc., didn't start working on this three years ago.

          the companies don't want it so why work and spend the money IF they could get their "romney" into the white house to overturn it.

          why work on this IF they could buy their way into the house and buy the congress?

          look at who supports the tea party and radical republicans.  it isn't the middle class who is financing these lies and misrepresentations - it is the people who are making the most money on health care who don't want to give it up.

          WHEN the law is implemented, the american people will learn the truth - that is why these folks like koch brothers and other republican donors are working so hard to block it.

          EdriesShop Is it kind? is it true? is it necessary?

          by edrie on Tue Aug 13, 2013 at 12:46:54 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  you are not a programmer (or a very experienced (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        one, if you write comments like this).

        a "few lines of code" - really?  to re-classify what the billing ratio is now?  to remove caps? to interact with all other aspects of medical care, from pharmacy to anesthesiologists to specialists to doctors who all see ONE patient on an issue such as a meniscus tear?

        ALL those programs have to friggin' TALK to each other - the billing has to match - the programs have to be in sync -

        just a few lines of code?


        and then those programs have to talk to federal programs like medicare, medicaid, medical, etc.  

        just a few lines of code.

        hey, if you can do it in a few lines of code, go offer your services and you can be the newest member of the 1% - you'd be right up there at the top IF you could do that!

        the real issue here is talking bs to people who know what they are talking about and i call your comment  out as BS in a few lines of comment!

        EdriesShop Is it kind? is it true? is it necessary?

        by edrie on Tue Aug 13, 2013 at 12:38:33 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  See my comment above. (0+ / 0-)

          Like I said , There are assholes all over IT

          “ Success has a great tendency to conceal and throw a veil over the evil of men. ” — Demosthenes

          by Dburn on Tue Aug 13, 2013 at 02:03:05 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  We are talking about billing cap totals (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          qofdisks, greenbell, nyceve, JVolvo

          Not about interactions with procedures.  How much as one customer paid in a single year. Is it over X? Thats a binary question.

          If a program isn't written with an admin back end that allows people to modify rules than it's a cranky old system made by old fashioned thinking where assholes like you and agent up there seem to think IT starts and ends with you.

           After all if a TOTAL cap changes on a single customer or a customer GROUP because they make a policy change , no one would have a system that requires a source code change each time and survive in a competitive environment as today.

          If an insurance company wants an across the board rate change upwards, any IT team that came up with your Bullshit would be out of a job.

          You are , after all , are the reason why so much is outsourced.

          “ Success has a great tendency to conceal and throw a veil over the evil of men. ” — Demosthenes

          by Dburn on Tue Aug 13, 2013 at 02:11:13 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  and where do they get those numbers? from their (0+ / 0-)

            providers of service, of course - those who ALSO have to make THEIR systems work and talk to others - and they have to have common programs to make sure the numbers justify.

            jeebus h. christ on a pogo stick!  

            think sku numbers of merchandise that goes to different stores that have different pricing structures - EACH of those end retailers need different codes that have to be programmed - so so insurance companies.

            you have a very poor grasp of retail, my friend - nor do you understand the manufacturing costs that go into the wholesale that end up on the retail shelves - and, yes, insurance is ALSO retail.

            now if you continue to claim i don't know what i'm talking about, i can get VERY detailed for you - right down to the original spec'ing out a program, researching the needs, developing the tools, implementing the code, compiling and then re-compiling to correct what was missed all the way up to the little scanner you use when you order your coffee at starbucks or any other vendor.

            don't make me do that.  my fingers are tired.  BUT if you continue in this vein, you leave me little choice but to write that dissertation on how the f*ck this stuff gets put together and the time frame it takes to do it.

            the choice is yours.

            mine?  i'm going to the barn.

            EdriesShop Is it kind? is it true? is it necessary?

            by edrie on Tue Aug 13, 2013 at 03:53:54 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Typical reaction (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:

              You are deliberately trying to make this much more complicated. You ,mentioned systems that has to interact with Medicare (prior post).  This has nothing to do with Medicare . Now you are talking about SKUs that have to interact with different systems. The diary discussed global payment caps. It had nothing to do with Medicare or SKUs for a tangible goods seller.

               I'm calling Bullshit on your Bullshit. We are talking about payment caps that is currently on most insurance policies anyway. Come to think of it . It wouldn't require more than a database admin to make the fucking changes, if that. One query to change all caps under a certain groupid would be all that is required for bills to go out paid instead of leaving a balance. Because all insurance companies have max pay caps and that was one change made on ACA. It was a global Change. This is what we are talking about. A global change that covers three separate groups of plans as laid out by the govt.

              If there is a global increase in rates, they don't go to the source code. You do write front-ends &  back-ends, many web based,  for Large systems so management can use it or you are out of a job. So I take back what I said about a few lines of code. The DB admin would at most have to add a new column and then change a few SQL queries and then make a change to the front end.  

              Beyond   SQL, which we all know is a fairly simply language to master, If a programmer has to get involved with something like this, then the system is built out of bailing wire and chewing gum and the company won't be around much longer . It probably means that too many variable values  are hard coded into the program.  That means , thank God, people like you won't have jobs.

              We are not talking about the granular detail of system interaction with all kinds of different systems. Besides there have been more than enough middle-ware languages developed to handle that type of problem that you apparently have no concept of.

              I 've seen this same thing before with people that profess knowledge in big iron. They have no concept of what is being done to make their jobs obsolete.

              “ Success has a great tendency to conceal and throw a veil over the evil of men. ” — Demosthenes

              by Dburn on Tue Aug 13, 2013 at 04:11:01 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

          •  oh, and I'M the reason so much is outsourced? (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:

            well, yeah.  the companies didn't want to pay those of us who made class 22 salaries and above when they could outsource for less than a dollar a day overseas (and look at what they got for that outsourcing - software that doesn't play well with others).

            really, dear, you are stepping into arrogancy here.  you should stop trying to make this personal.  you really don't want to do that.

            as i said, dissertation - novel - trilogy - your choice. i can keep adding facts to your suppositions until there is a perpetual loop.

            at least with my "facts", folks will actually learn a bit about how software programming really works.

            EdriesShop Is it kind? is it true? is it necessary?

            by edrie on Tue Aug 13, 2013 at 03:56:26 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Do you understand that no one cares to learn (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:

              about how software operates. Especially the garbage that you call software. I always find that people with large egos always resort to techno-geek whenever they get caught with their pants down.


              “ Success has a great tendency to conceal and throw a veil over the evil of men. ” — Demosthenes

              by Dburn on Tue Aug 13, 2013 at 04:14:22 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  you are an arrogant and rude person with whom (0+ / 0-)

                i will no longer engage.  unfortunately, this conversation COULD have been informative, however, you chose to make it personal and i've now vowed i will not interact with those who cannot discuss issues and have to resort to rude personal attacks.

                we're done.

                EdriesShop Is it kind? is it true? is it necessary?

                by edrie on Tue Aug 13, 2013 at 04:18:04 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

            •  I'd recommend a few hundred times....... (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:

              Says one that has spent hours cleaning up some slap happy force coded crap of code.....  2.5 pgms left to get just readable then to go through again and clean out the working storage area of worthless, meaningless crap.

              •  but but but, you only had to change a few lines of (0+ / 0-)


                this is what drives me batty with computer folks who know a little bit but haven't had to deal in real world experience on a large scale of integrated platforms.

                when i worked with wang - we were the provider - we had good and bad programmers on board - the bad ones slapped sh*t together quickly and walked away leaving the good programmers to come in and muck out the hard drives and try to "fix" the problems the created.  often, it was just easier to start over, but due to the hooks into the customer databases (many customized to work with the "bad" programs) that wasn't possible.

                i watched us have two accounts throw us out on less than 3 days notice.  one, silor optical, called and said we needed to pick up our new voice system in three days (friday) or it would be sitting on the street corner.  we got there.  they meant it.

                people who talk about writing "queries" are still "querying" existing programs and not modifying them.

                sheesh - i am going to bed soon.  this is giving me a massive headache.

                thanks for what you still do - finding the crap in a program is tough, but very satisfying to find the dead end.

                i remember once being told our wang vs was no faster than a batch processor.  couldn't understand why the company was so down on the vs - it was the fastest processor at the time of ALL companies...then i took a look at the program he was running.  a few lines into it was the copyright for the ibm batch processing program that his "cousin" who sold him the program had put in a wang compatible shell.

                no wonder the thing ran like an ibm!  pulled out all the copyright statement all through the program and showed them to him - he called his cousin and i was there with the printouts.  they refunded his money.

                unfortunately for me but fortunately for him, he didn't stay with wang, he bought pcs (new on the market).  within a year, wang's new ceo, richard miller, killed the value added trade by sending all potential buyers a letter telling them if they bought from anyone other than wang, the cost of using the software would be more than the entire system was worth.

                instead of buying both old AND new from wang, people just dumped them for pcs.  took out the necessity for a clean room, power protectors, large IT staffs and software use fees and hardware maintenence costs.  if the pc breaks, throw it out and buy a new one!

                ah, those were the days....

                EdriesShop Is it kind? is it true? is it necessary?

                by edrie on Tue Aug 13, 2013 at 09:01:30 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

    •  Funny. You'd think the Republicans were running (8+ / 0-)

      the show.  Huh, what?  Oh, they are.

      The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt. Bertrand Russell

      by accumbens on Tue Aug 13, 2013 at 10:32:03 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  do you have ANY idea how long it takes to rewrite (0+ / 0-)

      software programs as complicated as health care ones?

      to everyone is taking this as a personal affront - go learn programming and try to re-write, plug in, alter or change a huge program and data base.

      if microsoft, apple, etc., take YEARS to put out a new operating system then years to modify it, why do people just assume that changing the software that our medical systems run on can be just "done" "cuz".

      when are we going to become reality based again!


      THINK! people!  every damned thing we do in life now depends on software - our medical records are kept digitally, our mri's, our cat scans, even our xrays are produced digitally - AND the billing and coding that goes along with costing out these services are done DIGITALLY.

      that doesn't just change POOF! because a law is passed.

      all these programs have to talk to one another - medicare, medicaid, hospitals, patients - ALL have to be compatible.

      add to this the sequestration cuts and the monies to make the federal end work have been slowed down (deliberately, by republicans, btw).

      so, all this finger pointing at the big bad democrats for all this outrage and wailing isn't going to change the reality that it takes time to code and make compatible these changes.

      the real disgusting thing is that the republicans deliberately refused to start working on this because they were so determined to repeal the law.  

      why not put the blame where it is due.

      REPUBLICAN OBSTRUCTION! (please forgive me for shouting, but i really think some folks are deaf to the reality of this situation).

      now, what are you (general you) going to do about it?

      how about dumping the republicans from the house and senate in 2014.  that would be a good start!

      EdriesShop Is it kind? is it true? is it necessary?

      by edrie on Tue Aug 13, 2013 at 12:33:28 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I don't know. Stopping/changing billing (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        qofdisks, JVolvo

        people when their account shows they've already paid to their cap is something that is already a part of the massive code for these programs. You would just be changing the number at which the billing stops/changes.

        "Lone catch of the moon, the roots of the sigh of an idea there will be the outcome may be why?"--from a spam diary entitled "The Vast World."

        by bryduck on Tue Aug 13, 2013 at 12:38:35 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  for every "change" you make in a program - that (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:

          has to be "hooked" into the altered data file and those files have to be then adjusted to work with the algorthyms that spit out the data -

          it isn't just substituting a word here or there - there are data links that are in the coding that redirect each "instruction" and all those have to work correctly to make sense of the program.

          think of how long the Y2K issue took.  (and, no, programs didn't crash and the world didn't end - but the potential for major issues existed and it took almost two years of recoding JUST to add the extra digits into numerical calculations.

          no one at the beginning of all this computer stuff EVER imagined an end user would require a terabyte (not enough) for their data...but, then, the wang OIS system ran it's entire operating software on a 10 mg disk - and that included the data created.

          80 mgs was considered a HUGE storage in 1986 - now, it isn't enough to hold one bigfish game!

          really, folks, this isn't as simple as you think it is!

          EdriesShop Is it kind? is it true? is it necessary?

          by edrie on Tue Aug 13, 2013 at 12:52:20 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Yeah, I get that. (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:

            But even by your own admission, coders only took 2 years for the more-encompassing Y2K issue; they've had twice that already . . .

            "Lone catch of the moon, the roots of the sigh of an idea there will be the outcome may be why?"--from a spam diary entitled "The Vast World."

            by bryduck on Tue Aug 13, 2013 at 01:09:46 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  again, bryduck - to rewrite the programs, you have (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              bryduck, qofdisks

              to start actually DOING it.

              look at the reason these delays are in place.  look at the states that did absolutely nothing because the republicans were so convinced romney was going to win and make it go away.

              they delayed everyting until the deadline caught them flatfooted - the government had no choice but to extend the time.  the government couldn't MAKE the states start the process before hand - it can only deal with them afterward.

              i've never seen so many people hell bent on killing off the government in my lifetime - and they all are republicans!

              look at the incident of the rodeo clown - these idiots are still trying to stop anything obama and the congress (BOTH parties) voted into law to keep his administration from accomplishing anything.  got to punish the uppity man in the white house for stepping outside his station - so stop any legislation he proposes that will help americans!

              there are so many sick layers to what is happening in the country right now, it is hard to begin peeling them off - the stench is overpowering.

              and, under each layer, you'll find putrid republicans, cowardly kochs, slimey supremes and more.

              if we don't stop them, we have no future in this country...

              dems and obama are NOT the problem!  the only "citizens united" who can stop this are US!

              EdriesShop Is it kind? is it true? is it necessary?

              by edrie on Tue Aug 13, 2013 at 01:17:10 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

          •  4 years was more than enough time (5+ / 0-)

            The caps on out if pocket costs were an integral piece of this legislation from its very onset. There is no excuse for this. If the companies delayed planning for these changes, they are the ones that should be penalized by having to expend whatever resources are necessary to get this done now. They chose to gamble that it would not be implemented. They lost and should pay the price. The people whose health, quality of life and/or very lives depend on these caps have waited long enough. They should not be paying the price for the insurance companies' lack if due diligence.

            The fact that the administration is letting them off the hook for another year with no recourse for affected parties is maddening. The insurance companies can afford to fix this. The people that should be seeing this relief after all these years cannot.

            "Compassion is the radicalism of our time." ~ Tenzin Gyatso, 14th Dalai Lama -7.88, -6.21

            by Siri on Tue Aug 13, 2013 at 01:23:34 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  It is just a cap and it is the same for everybody. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        enhydra lutris
      •  You don't have to rewrite the entire program (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        JesseCW, greenbell, qofdisks, JVolvo

        any more than you need to completely re-engineer an automobile to change brake pad manufacturers.

        A has a cap and B has a cap but they don't talk to each other. That is the alleged problem. If your life depended upon it, and cost were no item, could you design a fix in a couple of months?

        I'll guarantee that if it had to do with aditional billings and revenues it would've been done long ago.

        That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt --

        by enhydra lutris on Tue Aug 13, 2013 at 03:18:35 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Well He's on Martha's Vineyard (0+ / 0-)

      Aren't we all?  Let the eat lobster, I guess.

    •  It's entirely expected, though. (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      nyceve, greenbell, qofdisks

      Why would people who broke all of their promises in creating the bill keep any of their promises in implementing it?

      Mr. Universe is a known degenerate Robotophile, and his sources include former Browncoat Traitors. What is their agenda in leaking top secret information about the Reavers and endangering us all?

      by JesseCW on Tue Aug 13, 2013 at 03:04:41 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  At least he is consistently deceitful (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        Apparently this has been hidden in plain sight for months.  He just loves hiding stuff doesn't he?  C-CPI, secret spying.  The guy has the soul of a used care salesman.  

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