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  •  I'm sure Our Leaders will call it (7+ / 0-)

    democracy.

    Dogs from the street can have all the desirable qualities that one could want from pet dogs. Most adopted stray dogs are usually humble and exceptionally faithful to their owners as if they are grateful for this kindness. -- H.M. Bhumibol Adulyadej

    by corvo on Wed Aug 14, 2013 at 07:09:45 AM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  ok,smart guy.... (12+ / 0-)

      what should the US Govt. and President Obama be doing?

      Give me the blueprint for handling this situation correctly according to corvo.

      The entire middle east is impacted by your solution.

      •  Do you support President Obama's arming.. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Shockwave

        ..of the Cannibal Rebels in Syria?

        I ask b/c, were Mubarek still in power, thousands of innocents would not have been assassinated today.

        Given the problems Arbusto had as a result of his War of Choice in Iraq, hard to believe that President Obama has allowed himself to get ensnared in the Middle East.

        Instead of focusing our military assets in Southeast Asia, we're bogged down in the fertile crescent.

        Learn about Centrist Economics, learn about Robert Rubin's Hamilton Project. www.hamiltonproject.org

        by PatriciaVa on Wed Aug 14, 2013 at 10:01:58 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I think I'm going to need a link for that (7+ / 0-)

          charge.

          Also the Obama Administration was backing Mubarek initially probably precisely to avoid the level of unstabilization that is going on right now.

          Not that Mubarek was a prize, but clearly this is a Civil War state situation.

        •  The only way Mubarak could have stayed in power (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          4CasandChlo, Mindful Nature

          was through actions like what occurred today. If he had not been removed then this would have happened sooner.

          If debt were a moral issue then, lacking morals, corporations could never be in debt.

          by AoT on Wed Aug 14, 2013 at 10:37:40 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Exactly right. . . . (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            AoT, highacidity

            I am no middle east scholar, nor citizen, quite the opposite, but I know enough to know that sometimes there are absolutely no "correct" answers (other than everyone putting their guns down and talking, short of that. . .) and it is foolish and dangerous to start the "if they had" or "now they have to" - - it's all opinion based upon preconceived notions.

            More dangerously, it implies that there is a straight line, discernible "answer" that someone, somewhere, must somehow, "know" and then implement it. Sometimes there is that kind of "answer" and sometimes there is NOT.

            Being naïve to the fact that there may be no "answer" for a foreign power, it is dangerous to proceed to "act" for the sake of "acting" as countless wars have started that way. And, finally, MOST dangerously, often the ones that presume to "know" are doing nothing more than propagandizing their preconceived selfish interests in how it all ends - - that they will gain.

            I think that on THIS issue, Obama has navigated as well as anyone could - McCain or Romney would have 700,000 US troops scattered from Syria through Libya by now - I don't think that's an exaggeration.

            Blessed are the peacemakers, the poor, the meek and the sick: The "party of Jesus" wouldn't invite him to their convention - fearing his "platform."

            by 4CasandChlo on Wed Aug 14, 2013 at 10:44:40 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  um (0+ / 0-)

          cannibal rebels?  That's a new one.  

          Apparently at least SOME Americans still have that old cold war love of murderous tyrants, it seems.

          There’s no way for a healthy human being to maintain the level of outrage warranted by the situation. - Dave Roberts, grist.org

          by Mindful Nature on Wed Aug 14, 2013 at 10:48:28 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  What the hell is in Southeast Asia (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          ColoTim, cdreid

          that should be focusing our military assets on?

          What we really need to be doing with our military assets is slashing our spending on them--both to save money and so we won't have the temptation to use them.

          "All governments lie, but disaster lies in wait for countries whose officials smoke the same hashish they give out." --I.F. Stone

          by Alice in Florida on Wed Aug 14, 2013 at 01:06:45 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  I'm not really sure they/we should be doing (7+ / 0-)

        anything besides offering humanitarian assistance.   I don't belong to the "If we bugger up [name of country here] just one more time, everything will finally turn out peachy" school of thought.

        In fact, I submit that so many countries in that part of the world are in such bad state precisely because of our meddling over the past decades.

        I'm certainly not convinced that Morsi and the Muslim Brotherhood had done anything so egregiously bad as to warrant the current coup and bloody suppression of supporters of a democratically elected government.  Did we "save" Egypt from fundamentalist Muslim tyranny?  Maybe.  But all we're doing is restoring the old tyranny.  I'm not impressed.

        Dogs from the street can have all the desirable qualities that one could want from pet dogs. Most adopted stray dogs are usually humble and exceptionally faithful to their owners as if they are grateful for this kindness. -- H.M. Bhumibol Adulyadej

        by corvo on Wed Aug 14, 2013 at 10:28:20 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  theocracy (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          highacidity

          Overthrowing a theocracy makes sense when there are people with different beliefs.  Morsi was restrictive to women, Coptic churches and congregants were at risk, this was going to be unstable without strong arm tactics from either side.  What does it say about faith, when theocracy is the worst form of government?

          Under capitalism, man exploits man. Under communism, it's just the opposite. John Kenneth Galbraith .

          by melvynny on Wed Aug 14, 2013 at 10:43:18 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Overthrowing a theocracy (5+ / 0-)

            is something the Egyptians can do without our assistance.  

            I don't see why we should be in that business; it just lends legitimacy to the theocrats.

            Dogs from the street can have all the desirable qualities that one could want from pet dogs. Most adopted stray dogs are usually humble and exceptionally faithful to their owners as if they are grateful for this kindness. -- H.M. Bhumibol Adulyadej

            by corvo on Wed Aug 14, 2013 at 10:44:34 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  tough call (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Aquarius40, ChadmanFL, highacidity

              Should we stop genocide?  Should we stop almost genocide?  Should we stop oppression of significant numbers?  Laissez-faire sounds better than it is--there is no "correct" arbiter.  Anything anyone does in these situations has wrong built in.  Stop the world, I want to get off!!

              Under capitalism, man exploits man. Under communism, it's just the opposite. John Kenneth Galbraith .

              by melvynny on Wed Aug 14, 2013 at 10:50:23 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Exactly what Egyptian genocide (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                protectspice, Gator Keyfitz

                do you want us to stop?

                Dogs from the street can have all the desirable qualities that one could want from pet dogs. Most adopted stray dogs are usually humble and exceptionally faithful to their owners as if they are grateful for this kindness. -- H.M. Bhumibol Adulyadej

                by corvo on Wed Aug 14, 2013 at 12:07:36 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  wasn't (0+ / 0-)

                  I wasn't being specific about Egypt--more responding that we shouldn't get involved in other country's coups.  But--Coptics are threatened--and churches burned.  Women could be open to stoning and be guilty of being raped.  Islamic governments are bad--so are Christian governments--so are Jewish governments--etc--they feel they have the almighty on their side and can do bad things in His name.  Divine right of kings without the kings.

                  BTW--shitty governments can be secular--Hitler, Stalin, and Saddam are good examples.  If it's correct to stop genocide, it must also be proper to stop governments before the mass killing.  Who is to judge?  I don't know.

                  Under capitalism, man exploits man. Under communism, it's just the opposite. John Kenneth Galbraith .

                  by melvynny on Wed Aug 14, 2013 at 04:40:44 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

        •  I'm pretty sure (5+ / 0-)

          that the US had jack all to do with the military's decision to overthrow the elected government and is now trying to manage the fallout.

          There’s no way for a healthy human being to maintain the level of outrage warranted by the situation. - Dave Roberts, grist.org

          by Mindful Nature on Wed Aug 14, 2013 at 10:49:33 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Then in that case (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Johnny Q

            we can call a coup a coup, and budget accordingly.

            Dogs from the street can have all the desirable qualities that one could want from pet dogs. Most adopted stray dogs are usually humble and exceptionally faithful to their owners as if they are grateful for this kindness. -- H.M. Bhumibol Adulyadej

            by corvo on Wed Aug 14, 2013 at 12:08:16 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I'd think so (0+ / 0-)

              I have some sympathy for the notion of not alienating the military, since having them stir up trouble in the West Bank, which they could, is a risk.  I would handle it more like you suggest, but I do understand why President Obama is treading more carefully also.

              There’s no way for a healthy human being to maintain the level of outrage warranted by the situation. - Dave Roberts, grist.org

              by Mindful Nature on Wed Aug 14, 2013 at 12:29:17 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Not sure how the Egyptian Army (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Johnny Q

                might find itself in the West Bank.  It doesn't even want to be involved in Gaza, and not just because we're paying it about $1.2 billion annually to comply with Israel's wishes there.  No country in its right mind would want to occupy Gaza.

                Dogs from the street can have all the desirable qualities that one could want from pet dogs. Most adopted stray dogs are usually humble and exceptionally faithful to their owners as if they are grateful for this kindness. -- H.M. Bhumibol Adulyadej

                by corvo on Wed Aug 14, 2013 at 12:58:15 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  I wasn't thinkin occupy the west bank (0+ / 0-)

                  just causing trouble.  Frankly, all they'd have to do is assign sleepy soldiers to monitor the tunnels into Gaza and allow miltants to purchase weapons in Egypt to be incredibly disruptive.  

                  There’s no way for a healthy human being to maintain the level of outrage warranted by the situation. - Dave Roberts, grist.org

                  by Mindful Nature on Wed Aug 14, 2013 at 01:00:43 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Not even Morsi dared do that. (3+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    protectspice, Cliss, Mindful Nature

                    I don't think any but the most radical and reckless Egyptians want to have to deal with the wrath of Israel.

                    Dogs from the street can have all the desirable qualities that one could want from pet dogs. Most adopted stray dogs are usually humble and exceptionally faithful to their owners as if they are grateful for this kindness. -- H.M. Bhumibol Adulyadej

                    by corvo on Wed Aug 14, 2013 at 01:06:28 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  you radically (0+ / 0-)

                      overestlimate israels military power. Aside from the tremendous financial and military aid we give them we pay a lot of folks in the area in a lot of ways to sit silently/do no harm/covertly aid them. And they long ago alienated every friend they had besides us.

                      A man is born as many men but dies as a single one.--Martin Heidegger

                      by cdreid on Thu Aug 15, 2013 at 07:17:11 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

        •  What do you mean, "we"? (0+ / 0-)
      •  simple (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Cliss

        call it a coup, condemn it, freeze all aid to the Egyptian government. Park an aircraft carrier off of Alexandria to make the point.

        There’s no way for a healthy human being to maintain the level of outrage warranted by the situation. - Dave Roberts, grist.org

        by Mindful Nature on Wed Aug 14, 2013 at 10:46:27 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  The Egyptian military receives the bulk of US aid (8+ / 0-)

          This aid is part of the U.S.-sponsored peace treaty between Egypt and Israel. Also, the ties between the US military and the Egyptian military are personal and go back several generations. The US could afford to loose Mubarak (he was old and sick in any event) but they must remain on good terms with the Egyptian military for Israel's sake.

          The US did give Egypt $1.3 billion in military aid this spring but withheld other aid subject to Morsi meeting the IMF's austerity program.

          This put Morsi between a rock and a hard place. It was a classic Catch 22. Morsi was fucked if he did and fucked if he didn't.

          Since Morsi's ouster, $12 billion has magically shown up to help the country out. The IMF has also stated that they will rethink the austerity measures as they might have been "too hard on the country" and "counter-productive" at this time. Now who would've thunk that?

          It appears that there is a fight going on between the Qatari's and the Saudi's that is stretching across the entire region. We can see the conflict reflected in how the two state media outlets - Al Arabiya and Al Jazeera - respond to events on the ground.

          Unfortunately, the US has a boot stuck in both camps which effectively neuters it. $60 billion in arms sales to Saudi Arabia vs  U.S. Central Command’s Forward Headquarters and the Combined Air Operations Center bases in Qatar:  Al Udeid Air Base,  As Saliyah Army Base and Doha International Air Base.

      •  I say stay out of it. (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        highacidity, cdreid

        Perhaps that is too simple. But we really need to just let this happen. I may live to regret that statement as the takeover of countries around the world by ONE RELIGION (whatever that religion may be) is, to me, akin to a zombie apocalypse.

        The problem with Eqypt is they democratically elected an anti-democratic party: The Muslim Brotherhood, which true to its creed, has thrown a religions veil over democracy.

        When you elect people that are opposed to democracy itself, democracy perishes.

        I'm with the military on this.

        If you hate government, don't run for office in that government.

        by Bensdad on Wed Aug 14, 2013 at 11:03:11 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Given the diarist's precarious situation (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      maryabein, MBNYC, kurious, jadt65

      maybe now is not the time to be scoring points.

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