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  •  It was pre-WWII so I'm going to assume (10+ / 0-)

    bootlegging and the roaring 20s.

    Republicans cause more damage than guns ever will. Share Our Wealth

    by KVoimakas on Wed Aug 14, 2013 at 11:28:57 AM PDT

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    •  yep n/t (6+ / 0-)

      Bowers v. DeVito "...there is no constitutional right to be protected by the state against being murdered."
      Director of Merchandising - the Liberal Gun Club
      Interim Chairman - Democratic Gun Owners' Caucus of Missouri

      by ErikO on Wed Aug 14, 2013 at 11:37:22 AM PDT

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    •  Prohibition: The original "War on X" that (12+ / 0-)

      turned the police into a paramilitary force (Bonnie and Clyde were taken down with BARs, fully automatic .30-06s that make most modern machine guns look like cap guns) simply  to keep up with the firepower of the criminal element.

      One would think we learned our lesson back then, but nope, we're still at it, trying to tell people what they can do with their own bodies and creating the perfect market for those who use power and terror to protect their empire.  This feeds into a vicious circle of stampeding on the rights of the law-abiding (not just limited to gun control, see the proliferation of no-knock warrants for a non-RKBA example...) while the police continue to uparm to points unheard of as recently as twenty years ago.

      Two sides to this coin as relating to the modern firearms debate:

      1) I'll give up my AR-15 and "high capacity" handguns when civilian law enforcement has to do the same.  If these are truly "military style" weapons then they belong in the hands of DoD and nobody else.  That means Billy Bob Deputy Sheriff doesn't get them, the USSS Agents guarding BHO don't get them, the New York State Police don't get them, heck even the Coast Guard shouldn't get them, except of course in times of war when they fall under the command of the USN.  What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

      2) We really need to just concede defeat in the War on Drugs and legalize them all.  The firepower race will end of it's own accord, our most vulnerable communities will slowly learn to trust the police again, and we just might be able to get the true addicts some help, since they won't be purchasing their poison from scumbag dealer who has a vested interest in continuing to victimize them.

      There are four boxes to be used in the defense of liberty: soap box, ballot box, jury box and ammo box. Use in that order.

      by Crookshanks on Wed Aug 14, 2013 at 12:04:30 PM PDT

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      •  Crookshanks: Frank Hamer's takedown (10+ / 0-)

        (an ambush in fact) of Bonnie and Clyde, in spite of the movies, did make some LE sense back in the day.
        Back in the day not being now, obviously. Did you see that story about Arlington sending a SWAT team on a code-compliance raid ? Geesh. Talk about a waste of resources ...

        oh, and somebody ought to teach DPS chopter spotters the difference between tomato plants and ... um ... weed(s).

        LBJ, Van Cliburn, Ike, Wendy Davis, Lady Bird, Ann Richards, Barbara Jordan, Molly Ivins, Sully Sullenburger, Drew Brees: Texas is NO Bush League!

        by BlackSheep1 on Wed Aug 14, 2013 at 02:24:28 PM PDT

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        •  Clyde Barrow & Cie (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          meagert, KVoimakas, johnel, Crookshanks

          left a trail of law enforcement officers, dead and wounded prior to being hounded by Frank Hammer and his posse.

          How did Clyde get his guns, including automatic weapons?
          Why he did it the old fashioned way, he stole them from gun stores (Hardware), and Military Armories.

          (there were allegations of bribery to gain access to information on where the guns were - this was after all, the Depression, and a sack of silver dollars went a long-long way)

          The country was in peril; he was jeopardizing his traditional rights of freedom and independence by daring to exercise them.” ~ Joseph Heller, Catch-22

          by 43north on Wed Aug 14, 2013 at 09:55:35 PM PDT

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        •  From a tactical point of view it did make sense... (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          KVoimakas

          .... I would have gone about it the same way.

          I referenced it because it's an example of what I was talking about, the arms race between the criminal element and the police, that was largely driven (as in modern times) by prohibition and the resulting changes to the culture, both criminal and mainstream.

          Criminals will always seek weaponry, but there's something about prohibition in particular that seems to turn it into an arms race between them and the police.  We saw it in the 1920s and we've seen it the last 20-30 years with the War on Drugs.

          Mundane criminals don't need the firepower to go toe-to-toe with law enforcement, it just isn't worth it for them.  Even if they win they lose, most know this, and it seems to stabilize the "arms race" before it gets out of hand.  Not so with drugs though, now you've got a product worth millions of dollars, so the calculation changes, and the criminal element starts to take extreme measures to protect their product, territory, and influence.

          Drugs also blur the line between those who are "in the game" and those who are "citizens" (with apologies to The Wire for stealing that great characterization), moving violence away from the traditional "scum on scum" ("red on red" in DoD parlance) and more towards "scum on taxpayer" or "scum on LEO" ("red on blue")

          The War on Drugs just makes no sense at all.  It doesn't make sense from a public policy standpoint.  It doesn't make sense from a civil libertarian standpoint.  It certainly doesn't pass the cost benefit analysis test that should apply to all legislation/governmental programs.  At least we're making progress on marijuana, a drug that's less harmful to its users (and society!) than alcohol or tobacco, but even that tiny bit of progress is being fought tooth and nail by the usual suspects.

          There are four boxes to be used in the defense of liberty: soap box, ballot box, jury box and ammo box. Use in that order.

          by Crookshanks on Thu Aug 15, 2013 at 01:07:57 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  But a DUI that results in a maiming or death (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Crookshanks

            is just as bad if the driver's stoned as drunk or high ... so, fail there.

            The WoD is another way of camo-covering a war on the poor and the brown, and it's led to a complete cultural revolution in police and sheriffs' departments.  DOJ now wants to change some of the rules (about damn time) on how drug-related indictments can be written up; the fight is barely beginning to preserve those "tough on crime" mandatory sentences, I fear.

            Had I been in Hamer's shoes ... I might've opted for more firepower,
            to disable the vehicle and ensure no escape.  But that's a tactical exercise for a LEO roundtable, now. The firepower Barrow and Parker had with them, given their lack of backup manpower, didn't guarantee them anything except a bloodier death. They'd been guerrilla tacticians and engineered successful confrontations before, but ... I don't think I believe their luck ran out. I think they got caught unprepared.

            It hasn't been that long since "No Country for Old Men" really applied, at least in parts of Texas; now, though, we're at just as high a risk of SWAT raids on tomato patches as we are of over-the-border cartel violence (More, actually, if you live in El Paso or Fort Worth).

            And then you get the Tom Coleman effect (Tulia). It's tough to find anything good coming out of the WoD, really (unless, you know, your fortune's in crude oil or pulpwood). Lots of bad coming out of it, though, every day and night it goes on.

            LBJ, Van Cliburn, Ike, Wendy Davis, Lady Bird, Ann Richards, Barbara Jordan, Molly Ivins, Sully Sullenburger, Drew Brees: Texas is NO Bush League!

            by BlackSheep1 on Thu Aug 15, 2013 at 01:36:16 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I _hated_ that movie..... (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              BlackSheep1

              .... SPOILERS ....

              ... STOP READING ...

              .... SPOILERS ....

              ... STOP READING ...

              .... SPOILERS ....

              ... STOP READING ...

              .... SPOILERS ....

              ... STOP READING ...

              .... SPOILERS ....

              ... STOP READING ...

              .... SPOILERS ....

              ... STOP READING ...

              .... SPOILERS ....

              ... STOP READING ...

              What kind of movie kills off the titular character OFF SCREEN?!?!

              Yeah, he had a bad ending in store, given the people that were after him, but OFF SCREEN?!

              And Tommy Lee Jones was wasted in that movie, he's one of my favorite actors, but his role could have easily been cast by a reasonably well trained chimpanzee.

              The psychopath was cast/acted well, though I was screaming at the TV over the absurdity of a "pew pew" silencer on a 12 gauge...

              Seriously, I felt like hopping on the bus and driving out to the producers house for a refund, like Kenny and Stan with Mel Gibson in South Park.  Now I just want those three hours of my life back. :P

              There are four boxes to be used in the defense of liberty: soap box, ballot box, jury box and ammo box. Use in that order.

              by Crookshanks on Thu Aug 15, 2013 at 01:44:29 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  did you see the diary on the Gee Oh Pee (0+ / 0-)

                yesterday featuring a screen cap of TLJ from that thing?

                I love me some Tommy Lee Jones. I was all ready to hate MiB3 'cause they were restricting his part in it. Turns out Dr. Marcus Welby's sidekick's kid can act. Who'd've thought?

                Cormac McCarthy's got one thing going for him that Larry McMurtry didn't: the world he's writing about never had any romantic associations.

                LBJ, Van Cliburn, Ike, Wendy Davis, Lady Bird, Ann Richards, Barbara Jordan, Molly Ivins, Sully Sullenburger, Drew Brees: Texas is NO Bush League!

                by BlackSheep1 on Thu Aug 15, 2013 at 01:59:48 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

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