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  •  Put it this Way, You Would Hear No Defense (7+ / 0-)

    of the program if W. was doing this now.

    "The problem with posting quotes off the Internet is you never know if they're genuine."--Gen. George Washington at the Battle of Gettysburg, February 30, 1908

    by Aspe4 on Mon Aug 19, 2013 at 08:15:42 AM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  The "defense" has gotten really quiet (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Aspe4, gooderservice, Nattiq

      over the last week or so.

      The power of the Occupy movement is that it ....realizes a fundamental truth about American politics… there is no way to vote against the interests of Goldman Sachs.

      by orson on Mon Aug 19, 2013 at 08:36:33 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  No it hasn't...the "Defender in Chief" has (8+ / 0-)

        yet another of his HR-worthy spam submissions on the Wreck List attacking the reporters and defending the perpetrators at this very moment!

        "Bernie Madoff's mistake was stealing from the rich. If he'd stolen from the poor he'd have a cabinet position." -OPOL

        by blue in NC on Mon Aug 19, 2013 at 08:59:09 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Are you kidding (12+ / 0-)

        they have gone into overdrive to the point where they are linking to lgf's and using the Nixonian, it's the Law if this administration says so. We need to get comfortable with it and realize it's a lawful balance of privacy and security.  Major denial about the reality that is playing out before our lying eyes.

        Minutiae and redefinitions of  what is the law a journalist a mule a crime abound. It's all to make Obama look bad and we must accept the secret surveillance state this administration has declared legal and necessary as it's authoritarianism we can believe in. Those who defend civil liberties are simply expressing libertarian sentiments.    

        •  No, it's the law (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          BenderRodriguez

          Because it was made legal when the Patriot Act was reauthorized in 2009 and Obama added FISA court oversight.

          You might not like the law.

          But it is the law.

          You and I are welcome to advocate changing the law, and I'll join you.

          But saying something is "Unconstitutional" because you don't like it makes you sound just like the wingnuts screaming about the Second Amendment when we try to pass background checks.

          The Supreme Court explicitly ruled metadata is not protected by the First Amendment.  In 1979!

          Sorry, laws aren't Unconstitutional because you say so.  That goes for the ACA, gun control, and the Patriot Act.  That's how our legal system works.

          •  azer (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            shaharazade, stewarjt
            Because it was made legal when the Patriot Act was reauthorized in 2009 and Obama added FISA court oversight.

            You might not like the law.

            But it is the law.

            Laws that were broken thousands of times just over the past year.

            http://articles.washingtonpost.com/...

            Also, just because something is deemed constitutional (and these programs haven't been, because King Obama refuses to let the courts decide on the matter), doesn't mean it will stand forever.

            Nor does it mean any of these laws are just or ethical.

            •  You're referring to inadvertent errors? (0+ / 0-)

              The NSA errors were caught by an internal audit meant to conform to the law.  

              So the example you just cited proves the exact opposite of the point you hope to make.  There is no evidence of illegal, intentional search without warrants/oversight.  None.  

              Just digital mistakes.  

              The system needs better protections in place.  But that's not the same as screaming that the NSA is acting unconstitutionally.

      •  most of them, but they're still silently reccing (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Enzo Valenzetti, shaharazade

        up the spammy spinny screeds of defense minister number 1. sigh...

        "The further a society drifts from truth, the more it will hate those that speak it." ~George Orwell "When it is dark enough, you can see the stars." ~Charles Beard

        by poligirl on Mon Aug 19, 2013 at 11:27:22 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  No one here is defending the program (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      BenderRodriguez

      The pro-Greenwald crowd just doesn't like nuance when many of us long time Daily Kos members point out that, while the NSA desperately needs reform, the narcissistic scorched earth "both sides do it" false equivalency narratives are no way to get there.

      But then, we must be "tribalists" or something.  I have to check the Glenn Greenwald terminology book, I'm not sure if "tribalist" and "Obamabot" has been updated to "apologist fascist" or something.

      •  both sides passed the (0+ / 0-)

        re-upped Patriot Ac wuith the super dupper secret sauce, the bogus AUFM and any and all new legislation that expanded and legalized the Bushies abuses. Both party's passed NDAA and this Democratic administration fought via the courts and by reinterpreting old  and legislating new definitions of the enemy and the crimes. Secret law, courts, warrants and secret crimes are not legal and neither is the bogus GWOT. Saying what is or isn't the Law does not make it so. There are plenty of lawyers who aren't bent who think this is unconstitutional and is illegal..

         As it stands all branches and both parties have twisted the law, The Great Writ, to the point where we are no longer a functioning democracy. Why is the TPP a classified state secret? This may be according to our bent captured creeping towards fascist government but it sure as hell doesn't trump our Bill of Rights regardless of what these bent pols, lawyers and courts say. How does an endless trumped up Terror negate common laws universal civil and human rights? How come the real criminals.

        Reformed my ass just like they reformed health care or the banksters, criminal casino. What they have done is 'reformed' the laws to suit their anti-democratic ends.  Assholes with power who  want to rule the world always lay claim to the legality of their violations of universal law and established human and civil rights. Fear, false threats and protecting people from the evil other is one of the oldest authoritarian tricks in the book. The GWOT is a dozy as it creates and endless enemy nebulous shadow enemy.  The law can now call any resistance or dissent terrorism or aiding abetting.  This is not what democracy or the rule of law looks like, it's what every lawless nasty regime throughout history has implemented and called it the Law and the Authority.

        We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

        That to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed. That whenever any form of government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or abolish it, and to institute new government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness.

        Prudence, indeed, will dictate that governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shown, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed.

                   

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