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View Diary: Only young pups need apply (267 comments)

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  •  My (8+ / 0-)

    understanding is an employer has to ask for a photo ID and either a SS card or a certified birth certificate before they can officially accept your signed I-9.

    •  I'd give them my SS card. It doesn't have my DOB (3+ / 0-)

      Just my name and number.  That's all they need. Why on earth would they need a birth certificate? And they certainly don't need to see a driver's license unless you were hired to drive.

      "Some folks rob you with a six-gun, some rob you with a fountain pen." - Woody Guthrie

      by Involuntary Exile on Sun Aug 18, 2013 at 10:33:36 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  The I-9 form requires 2 forms of ID (5+ / 0-)

        Typically, people use their SS card and their driver's license.  

        The SS card is pretty standard.  The second form of ID can be one of many things but I can't think of even one that doesn't show date of birth.

        It's not a question of whether our founding fathers are rolling in their graves but rather of how many RPM they're clocking.

        by Eyesbright on Sun Aug 18, 2013 at 10:48:52 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  However ... (14+ / 0-)

          The I-9 isn't supposed to be filled out until after you're actually hired!

          If an employer tried to renege at that point, i.e. to withdraw an offer of employment, chances of proving age discrimination increase exponentially.

          I know first-hand of employers who, while you're waiting for an interview, hand you a sheaf of forms to fill out, including the I-9 and even insurance enrollment forms.  It is illegal to ask for your date of birth in any way until after you're hired. and both of those forms will do exactly that.

          This is why an employment application will include language that asks "if hired, can you provide proof of right to work in the USA?"  That question is perfectly legal.

          Typically, what's happened is that low level HR staff have put together a package of all the forms that are needed to set up an employee file.  No one bothers to mention (or even be aware, usually) that some of those forms are premature and illegal to require from someone who is only at the stage of applying for the job.

          Note to anyone who encounters this dilemma:
          don't fill out any form that includes date of birth.  When you're handing in the forms you have completed (one will probably be an application for employment and that's the one you should concentrate on), if you're questioned about the un-completed forms, simply smile and say "I'll do those later."

          I"ve been interrupted several times while writing this, so it's taken longer than it should.  If someone else has already brought up these points, that's all to the good because it bears repeating.

          It's not a question of whether our founding fathers are rolling in their graves but rather of how many RPM they're clocking.

          by Eyesbright on Sun Aug 18, 2013 at 11:18:36 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Your SS number can indicate approximately (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:

          how old you are. I've been around awhile and my number is low compared to those issued more recently.

          It’s the Supreme Court, stupid! Followed by: It's always the Supreme Court! Progressives will win only when we convince a majority that they, too, are Progressive.

          by auapplemac on Sun Aug 18, 2013 at 11:18:44 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  No, Social Security assigns numbers (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:

            according to a formula that does not give lower numbers to earlier applicants.  If your number is lower than others', it's a coincidence.  

            "My country, right or wrong; if right, to be kept right; and if wrong, to be set right." -- Sen Carl Schurz 1872

            by Calamity Jean on Mon Aug 19, 2013 at 02:51:15 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  You must complete an form I9 (0+ / 0-)

        to work in the US.  I9s require a photo id (acceptable forms are described on the DOJ form) for proof of identity, and another ID (described on the reverse of the form I9) that proves you are a citizen or a non-citizen with a permit to work.  

        If you have never been asked for these two forms of ID or one passport (which established both) then your employer(s) are out of compliance with the Dept of Homeland Security and the Dept of Justice and should be fined and have their ability to hire suspended, pending an investigation.  That's the law.

        The only exemption that exists is for employees hired before 1987 by their employer (and never changed jobs) when the law went into effect and who are grandfathered.

        "Out of Many, One Nation." This is the great promise of the United States of America -9.75 -6.87

        by Uncle Moji on Sun Aug 18, 2013 at 02:38:27 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  We have to supply proof (0+ / 0-)

      that we're legally allowed to work in the UK. Birth certificate, passport, naturalisation papers, things like that.

    •  A passport does double duty! (0+ / 0-)

      It counts as both identification and proof of citizenship.

      "The great lie of democracy, its essential paradox, is that democracy is the first to be sacrificed when its security is at risk. Every state is totalitarian at heart; there are no ends to the cruelty it will go to to protect itself." -- Ian McDonald

      by Geenius at Wrok on Sun Aug 18, 2013 at 11:40:06 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  You should only complete an I9 once you are hired (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      True North

      I believe this is in the DOJ regulations regarding the use of I9s.  

      I9s cannot be used as a screening device except for the purpose they were created, to ensure that you are legally allowed to work in the US.

      If an I9 is used for the purpose you describe and you can prove it, you can report it to Homeland Security (DOJ I9 is now administered under HLS) and file a complaint with EEOC.

      "Out of Many, One Nation." This is the great promise of the United States of America -9.75 -6.87

      by Uncle Moji on Sun Aug 18, 2013 at 02:32:39 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Credit/Background Check (2+ / 0-)

        Many employers require a credit check or background check.  I'm pretty sure that you need a DOB do to either.  I had to go through this just to get an opportunity to train with Kaplan Test Prep.  

        Then, after four weeks of training, I wasn't hired because, "you don't seem like you're honestly enthusiastic when [the trainer posing as a student] gets the answers right."

        Is there any job where shit-eating enthusiasm isn't a prerequisite?

        One man gathers what another man spills

        by John Chapman on Sun Aug 18, 2013 at 03:16:28 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  The comment refers to the claim of an I9 (0+ / 0-)

          required before hiring which is in clear violation of the I9 use under DOJ/HLS regulations, you can read that comment I responded to by selecting "Parent".

          Under the Fair Credit Reporting Act, you may be required to submit to a credit report as a condition of final offer, but only after a conditional offer is made.  

          That you submitted to a Consumer Credit Check (which includes financials and other background) or use of DOB for alleged I9 purposes before a hire offer (conditional or otherwise) was made is not a function of either the I9 or the FCRA.  

          You appear to have had a conditional hire, since few businesses bother to pay for four weeks of training for every prospective candidate.  

          People here cite laws and regulations as if they are responsible for the violations that happen by unscrupulous employers.

          And yes, the form you had to sign to authorize use of a credit report under the FCRA requires your DOB, and SSN, as well as your name and any aliases.  As does the CORI check and the SORI check.  

          This diary is about age discrimination, as I read it.  

          And as my friends who work as actuaries tell me, there is at least one job where enthusiasm of any kind is not a preferred expression.  Fortunately or unfortunately I have had neither the inclination or the skill nor the level of boredom to consider that career path.

          "Out of Many, One Nation." This is the great promise of the United States of America -9.75 -6.87

          by Uncle Moji on Sun Aug 18, 2013 at 04:29:48 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I understood you were talking about I9s (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:

            But I was suggesting that employers could use the background check as a way to screen potential employees by age.

            Also, I'm fairly certain that credit reports are required not simply of conditional hires (although it my situation that probably was the case).  I have helped low-income individuals who have no money and are being told that they can't fill certain jobs with their poor credit score.

            This article suggests that voluntarily submitted credit reports are being used as a screening tactic. Smart applicants should probably cross off their SSN and DOB.

            One man gathers what another man spills

            by John Chapman on Tue Aug 20, 2013 at 12:32:01 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

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