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View Diary: "I shot me a n*****" Part 2 The Stand Your Ground edition (26 comments)

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  •  Unfortunately (12+ / 0-)

    this kind of fallout of SYG, and possibly the Zimmerman trial, was inevitable.

    "Much of movement conservatism is a con and the base is the marks." -- Chris Hayes

    by raptavio on Sun Aug 18, 2013 at 12:16:39 PM PDT

    •  Yes, indeed. (10+ / 0-)

      There was another case here in Florida this year where a guy shot into an suv with four teens in it, killing one because he was afraid and thought they had a gun. He started the confrontation over their loud music at the convenience mart parking lot. He left the scene and ordered pizza. The cops caught up with him the next day. It's getting way out of hand.

      ~War is Peace~Freedom is Slavery~Ignorance is Strength~ George Orwell "1984"

      by Kristina40 on Sun Aug 18, 2013 at 12:38:18 PM PDT

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      •  That was Mr. Dunn (5+ / 0-)

        It was reported at the time, IIRC, that he and his gf and stopped there after they had attended his son's wedding reception. Among other things at the store they bought wine. They left the convenience store, went to their motel/hotel and drove home the next day.

        That guy shot into that vehicle and left the scene. Didn't call 911.

        He was YARGO turned murderer in the blink of an eye, because gun+alcohol+kick temper = poor judgment and ruined lives.

        "They did not succeed in taking away our voice" - Angelique Kidjo - Opening the Lightning In a Bottle concert at Radio City Music Hall in New York City - 2003

        by LilithGardener on Sun Aug 18, 2013 at 02:20:26 PM PDT

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    •  Not just inevitable, but done like this by design (13+ / 0-)

      to kill two birds with a stone:

      1. Sell more guns with the fear that has been sowed

      2. To allow vigilantes to shoot any "undesireables"

      This law is outrageous.

    •  It is highly unlikely that this had anything to do (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      notrouble

      with the Zimmerman trial and given Butler's intellectual capacity it is doubtful he knew anything about SYG.

      http://www.newsherald.com/...

      In July 2012 Gulf County was rocked by the news that 32-year-old Everett Gant had been fatally shot at the Pine Ridge Apartments off Garrison Avenue in Port St. Joe by Walton Butler.
      Unless Butler had a time machine it is unlikely that his actions were influenced by the Zimmerman trial.
      Butler reported that Gant pounded on the door and yelled physical threats. Butler approached the door and what happened next is in dispute.

      Butler and Lynn told police that Gant opened the sliding glass door and attempted to come into the house, but Dunham, who was right behind Gant, told a different story and claimed that Lynn was on his knees and pulled open the door.

      “He’s always on his knees because he gets drunk and can’t walk,” Dunham told deputies. “This was all a setup.”

      A lot is going to depend on who the jury believes.

      Gant obviously had good reason to be angry, but the law is clear - insults are not an excuse for violence and you still have the right to self defense even if you have insulted someone or that person's child.  (The case that established this freed a black woman from prison who was convicted of killing an elderly white woman - this is not a rule designed to protect white people who use racial epithets.)

      I'm pretty sure that there is not a state in the country where you can be convicted if an angry man who is yelling and making threats opens the door to your home and walks in and you shoot him.

      If, on the other hand, Lynn opened the door for Gant it gets a lot more complicated.  Questions come up such as whether or not Butler knew that Lynn had let Gant in (I think a reasonable man would assume that if an angry yelling man shows up at your house your guests will not open the door and let him in), and whether Gant's actions still put Butler in reasonable fear of death or serious bodily harm (you can still shoot a house guest in self defense).

      Let's also add:

      Encouraged by Lynn, Butler called 911 immediately and reported the incident. He then sat down and ate part of his dinner. EMS was on scene seven minutes later.
      Calling 911 was, of course, the right thing to do.  Eating his dinner did not look good, but I'm not sure it would have been a good idea for Butler to try to help Gant, especially given some of the other information in the article:
      Deputies also spoke with Pamela Silcox, who works in the Pine Ridge offices. She had seen Butler and Lynn earlier in the day. Investigator Greg Skipper asked her if the men appeared to be intoxicated or under the influence.

      “My personal opinion, that’s a daily thing,” answered Silcox. “They are their everyday self.”

      She went on to say that anytime she had stopped by the apartment, morning, noon or night, there is always beer around. In his statements to police, Dunham had reported drinking beer during the evening.

      ...

      On Jan. 4, Butler was analyzed by Dr. Michael T. D’ Errico, Ph.D., who determined Butler’s IQ level to be 81.

      According to a notice of intent to rely on a mental health defense other than insanity, Butler’s IQ falls near the upper limit of the borderline range of intellectual functioning.

      If I had just been shot in the head and EMS was on the way I am not sure I would want a falling down drunk alcoholic with borderline intellectual functioning trying to help me.

      The alcohol and Butler's borderline mental retardation probably also explain a lot of his behavior, possibly including his decision to shoot Gant if that was, in fact, not a reasonable decision given the situation.

      •  Ah, I thought it said July 2013. Good call. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Harshmellow

        However an 81 IQ is well above the level needed to understand the law.

        "Much of movement conservatism is a con and the base is the marks." -- Chris Hayes

        by raptavio on Sun Aug 18, 2013 at 06:16:37 PM PDT

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        •  I don't know if an 81 IQ is enough to understand (0+ / 0-)

          the law, but apparently it is enough to give a possible defense in this case under Florida criminal law.

          According to a notice of intent to rely on a mental health defense other than insanity, Butler’s IQ falls near the upper limit of the borderline range of intellectual functioning.
      •  Deadly force is supposed to be a last resort (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        a2nite, LilithGardener

        Locking the door is a first resort. I'm not sympathetic to the defendant here.

        Anyone considering a dog for personal safety should treat that decision as seriously as they would buying a gun.

        by Dogs are fuzzy on Sun Aug 18, 2013 at 11:41:48 PM PDT

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        •  Plenty of people don't lock their doors (0+ / 0-)

          We don't usually lock our door during the day.

          Anyway, not locking your doors is not generally considered to remove your right of self defense.

          You could just as easily tell an attractive young lady walking late at night who shoots a would-be rapist that "Deadly force is supposed to be a last resort" and that she should have taken a taxi or not gone out alone so late, and therefore that you are not sympathetic to her defense.  But I don't think that would fly very well here

      •  What I said was (0+ / 0-)

        "after the Zimmerman trial outcome". They didn't invoke SYG until recently, after the verdict. If this fool gets off (which I suspect he will) the message will be loud and clear to the lunatics. I also don't think it's "normal" to sit down and eat after you just shot someone. I didn't really figure he would be useful as an emt.

        ~War is Peace~Freedom is Slavery~Ignorance is Strength~ George Orwell "1984"

        by Kristina40 on Mon Aug 19, 2013 at 04:52:21 AM PDT

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    •  Your comment is true. I thought that myself at the (0+ / 0-)

      time. However, what is also inevitable is that this is going to change our society for the better and will lead to justice.
      How soon this occurs and how many more lives are lost absolutely depends on how hard we work to bring racial justice and a colorblind society into being.
      We should act and commit on this and encourage others to act and commit.

      You can't make this stuff up.

      by David54 on Sun Aug 18, 2013 at 07:29:01 PM PDT

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      •  I think a colorblind society (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        David54

        is a pipe dream at best.

        Better I think to acknowledge race exists, acknowledge that it is primarily a social construct, and try to ensure fairness and equality under the law.

        "Much of movement conservatism is a con and the base is the marks." -- Chris Hayes

        by raptavio on Sun Aug 18, 2013 at 07:30:51 PM PDT

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        •  You define what I'd consider a "colorblind" (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Prinny Squad

          society.
          I would say that eventually we'll have a society which has melded to the point that it is colorblind.
          I think that "colorblindness" is possible when 2 people (for instance) fall in love and look into one another's eyes and forget that they are of separate races.
          I heard a story the other day about a local WWII veteran and a story he shared about being in N. Africa. His unit was surrounded and offered terms of surrender. However, there was also a unit of black soldiers. They were told that the Nazis didn't take black prisoners. They decided to fight their way out, and told the other soldiers "Follow us."
          According to the person telling the story, they walked out of there over the bodies of dead German soldiers.
          I assume that experience made many of the white soldiers "colorblind".
          However, the black soldiers may not have come out of this "colorblind".
          I hope for a true colorblind society and I don't believe it is a "Pipe dream", however, I agree that if it's possible, it won't be easy.

          You can't make this stuff up.

          by David54 on Sun Aug 18, 2013 at 07:52:16 PM PDT

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        •  "Colorblind" might be a pipe dream... (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          LilithGardener

          but it's a good pipe dream. Nothing good ever happened without reaching out for a better for tomorrow. To move in that direction we work toward true equality under the law.

          A conservative is a man with two perfectly good legs who, however, has never learned how to walk forward. Franklin D. Roosevelt

          by notrouble on Sun Aug 18, 2013 at 10:05:19 PM PDT

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          •  I don't think so. (0+ / 0-)

            Our efforts to be "colorblind" thus far have been counterproductive, for reasons that are long to get into but mostly because when you deliberately turn a blind eye to race, you turn a blind eye to all the non-overt forms of racism, like privilege.

            "Much of movement conservatism is a con and the base is the marks." -- Chris Hayes

            by raptavio on Mon Aug 19, 2013 at 06:02:50 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

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