Skip to main content

View Diary: Using the Hype-Loop to Understand the California HSR System (390 comments)

Comment Preferences

  •  How do you handle emergency exits? (12+ / 0-)

    If a car hangs up in the tube, and everything stops, how can you safely exit the pod into what is supposed to be a low-pressure environment. With the HSR, you can just get out and walk.

    And remembering the lessons from the early London Underground, how attractive would it be to be cooped up in a windowless pod, in a steel tube? Lack of visual cues would probably accentuate the acceleration effects you mention in the diary, Bruce.

    I think Mr. Musk should stick to the task of expanding his electric car line and space transport systems, and not be wasting everyone's time with "extrusion transport".

    Float like a manhole cover, sting like a sash weight! Clean Coal Is A Clinker!

    by JeffW on Sun Aug 18, 2013 at 06:23:03 PM PDT

    •  It is not surprising that so much of ... (7+ / 0-)

      ... the representations show the tube as mostly transparent, since that kind of peeled away illustration is a  standard way to explain something like this ... but it does dramatically represent the claustrophobic feeling of traveling in a two-across vehicle in a steel tube.

      I don't know what you'd put on LCD screens along the sides to overcome that.

      I don't know how you handle emergency exits ... all rail tunnels beyond a certain length have periodic emergency shelters ... I have seen a double tube rail tunnel design with a third smaller emergency access/egress tube in between the rail tunnels.

      That would be Yet Another Budget Blowout for this technology.

      Support Lesbian Creative Works with Yuri anime and manga from ALC Publishing

      by BruceMcF on Sun Aug 18, 2013 at 06:43:32 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I remember an earlier version of this... (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        BruceMcF, geomoo, RAST

        ...idea, and the cars were drawn up as something resembling cylindrical Talgo units, complete with diaphrams between the cars, back in the 1960's. I thought back then that I wouldn't want to ride for a long period of time in something like that!

        There was also a model high-speed pneumatic transport system set up in a basement corridor at the Illinois Institute of Technology, back in the 70's when I was a student there. The line terminated into a "catcher", made of three 55-gallon drums welded together, filled with sandbags. Imagine scaling that up!

        Float like a manhole cover, sting like a sash weight! Clean Coal Is A Clinker!

        by JeffW on Sun Aug 18, 2013 at 06:49:18 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Passenger farting (11+ / 0-)

      Eventually, you have enough compressed methane to burn through the 1 inch thick steel tubes and cut and exit hole.

      400ppm : what about my daughter's future?

      by koNko on Sun Aug 18, 2013 at 08:31:09 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  When possible, go to next station... (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Cat4everrr

      Just like any mass transit system.

      But the second option would be for retracted wheels from the car to come out and push the car to an exit portal.

      If there was an even worse problem, they can repressurize the tube and a non-linear motor driven car could come up to your car under its own power to push!

      It is an engineer's job to imagine everything that can go wrong. THEN to think up solutions!

      •  The point is, the costing for this proposal ... (7+ / 0-)

        ... is done without any engineer actually proceeding to do that. The stations are hundreds of miles apart, so an ability to limp into the next station implies tube constipation. To be able to accelerate the vehicles up to 700mph and let them coast for hundreds of miles, you can't have a vehicle puttering along at a slower speed. The tube has to be cleared of any low speed traffic before normal operation can proceed.

        But there is no cost for exit portals. There is no cost for emergency recovery vehicle in bays. And the emergency recovery vehicles couldn't accelerate themselves and however, many stranded vehicles are ahead of them up to 700mph, so that approach would still face the tube constipation problem.

        You address whether addressing the problem might be technically feasible, but that's not the question. The question is whether its technically feasible to do that at zero additional cost.

        Because a cost comparison is being present to a system with all of those safety elements already costed in.

        There is no restart mechanism in the proposal, which is an issue for a system where the speed of 700mph is provided by linear accelerators built into fixed parts of the tube, and so which cannot be accelerated back up to 700mph on its own power.

        Since the argument being made is that the costing of the Hyperloop proposal is doesn't add up, pointing out additional cost elements that could be added to make the system functional is supporting the argument, not contesting it.

        Support Lesbian Creative Works with Yuri anime and manga from ALC Publishing

        by BruceMcF on Mon Aug 19, 2013 at 11:20:17 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Fair points, but... (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Cat4everrr, JesseCW

          How often are you expecting a car to have to "limp along" back to the station? This is for extraordinary circumstances.

          But, yes, there has to be exit portals. Want to bet that HSR has some need-to-have item that aren't on the budget yet?

          And the best thing about the entire proposal is the lack of high speed engine on the car.

          The fact that HSR has this huge, heavy locomotive is exactly why it is too slow and too expensive.

          •  If there need to be exit portals, ... (4+ / 0-)

            ... you are making my case for me about Elon Musk's cost claims, because Elon Musk does not budget for them.

            As far as:

            The fact that HSR has this huge, heavy locomotive is exactly why it is too slow and too expensive.
            ... too slow for what? 180mph HSR train work well in a wide variety of settings, and California will be using a 220mph train.

            ... too expensive for what? Its clearly cheaper for the passenger capacity than Elon Musk's Hyperloop would be in reality, and you seem to think that the Hyperloop would be worth the price ... so it follows that the cheaper California HSR would also be worth the price.

            And  since you keep spinning this deceptive picture of the California HSR being pulled by an Amtrak locomotive, a train with half the axle load of normal freight mainline locomotives,

            Support Lesbian Creative Works with Yuri anime and manga from ALC Publishing

            by BruceMcF on Mon Aug 19, 2013 at 12:58:36 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  When you say 'would be in reality'... (0+ / 0-)

              That's when I know you are starting to lie to me.

              Presenting opinion as fact. An opinion that ignores everything that makes Musk's proposal attractive.

              •  Ditto, except ... (4+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                gooderservice, geomoo, triv33, psyched

                ... you haven't sourced a single claim, and my diary is chock full of sources.

                I am not going to spend an hour researching why something that only took you a minute to fabricate is false.

                The burden of proof is on you to provide sources to substantiate your claim, when you are disputing a diary that has started out with its sources available for all to click through to.

                Support Lesbian Creative Works with Yuri anime and manga from ALC Publishing

                by BruceMcF on Mon Aug 19, 2013 at 02:40:34 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  This is the "Taking four times longer is better (0+ / 0-)

                because you can walk around during the lengthy trip" guy.

                There's a point at which obsession with a prefered mode of travel just becomes a set of blinders.

                It's never good to try to apply to much reason when dealing with the hyper dedicated "Train Enthusiast" crowd.  I've learned that from trying to explain to them why we can't do away with trucks and have choo-choo trains running to every mall and grocery store.

                Mr. Universe is a known degenerate Robotophile, and his sources include former Browncoat Traitors. What is their agenda in leaking top secret information about the Reavers and endangering us all?

                by JesseCW on Mon Aug 19, 2013 at 08:10:21 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Its not four times longer ... (0+ / 0-)

                  ... except for a minority of the population of the LA urban area who live close to Sylmar.

                  Indeed, much of the population of the LA urban area have not just one, but two airports that are closer to them than Sylmar.

                  Clearly having a larger portion of the trip settled into your seat is a superior feature of rail over plane travel, but the market experience is that HSR train travel generally dominates air travel under two hour train trips, is competitive with air travel over two to three hours, and concedes the majority of the combined market to air over four hours.

                  Support Lesbian Creative Works with Yuri anime and manga from ALC Publishing

                  by BruceMcF on Mon Aug 19, 2013 at 09:25:23 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

            •  Except that his design *does* call for emergency (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              JesseCW

              exits.  And the budget is in the cost of the tube itself.  Raw steel is $400/tonne.  Finished steel parts produced to HSR-tolerances run about $800/tonne, going by the Tata contract for the Mecca-Medina line.  Musk is budgeting his tubes at a rate of over $1200/tonne.  

              California will be using a 220mph train.
              Right.  You're going to go at 220 miles an hour through cities.  Through train stations with stopped trains and people on platforms.  Through busy metro areas, with pedestrians.  Through legs of shared track with local trains and freight trains.  All of which is extensively called for in the HSR proposal.  

              Right.  By the way, want to buy some swampland?

              Já þýðir já. Nei þýðir nei. Hvað er svona erfitt við það?

              by Rei on Mon Aug 19, 2013 at 02:54:11 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Nobody serious would read ... (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                terrypinder

                ... the speed that the train is capable of as a claim that it will be operating at that speed over every mile of its route.

                Nobody who intended to be taken seriously would pretend that they had read the speed that the train is capable of as a claim that it will be operating at that speed over every mile of its route.

                You are the person who wrote a call-out diary for this one, and did a big "gotcha" on Alon Levy pointing out that normal maximum lateral acceleration in practice is in the range of 0.5m/s^2 to 0.69m/s^2 and breathlessly declared that Elon Musk had a limit of 0.5g ...

                ... or, in other words, 4.9m/s^2.

                Support Lesbian Creative Works with Yuri anime and manga from ALC Publishing

                by BruceMcF on Mon Aug 19, 2013 at 09:30:05 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

Subscribe or Donate to support Daily Kos.

Click here for the mobile view of the site