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View Diary: NSA/Snowden Flame Wars-Solved! (132 comments)

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  •  Meme wars over essential liberties are not the (6+ / 0-)

    same as meme wars over political candidates. Dismissing them as flame wars (and all meme conflicts will eventually descend into flame wars when one side is sufficiently scared/angry) avoids the point, especially when the stakes are now as high as they are. What is transpiring here at DKos and nationally (see "Concern over NSA privacy violations unites Democrats and Republicans, poll finds" from the WaPo) is a meme war not between Republicans and Democrats but between the 1% and 99%. There is a lot of Villager panic, as seen in @MikeGrunwald 's painfully stupid candor on Saturday.

    Folks like Reggid et al. attempt to confuse the issue by labelling dissenters as, for example, "Paulbots" (illustrative, not descriptive, purpose only) only to get stomped on by the growing consensus. Others like Grunwald openly advocate extrajudicial violence only to stomped into whining rationalization.

    Just saying. But if this is the skirmish line on which these these folks want to make their stand, I say let them.

    •  How effective is Reggid? (5+ / 0-)

      As for turning it into 99% and 1%, I think that is wishful thining.  But it is fine with me.  The flame wars are Daily Kos.  Calling them "meme wars" does not change anything.  

      Why is it so terrible if there is a minority view?  Reggid likely has the support of 10% to 25% of commenters, at most.  So what?  In fact, a real debate allows one to influence people.

      Join us on the Black Kos front porch to review news and views written from a black pov—everyone is welcome.

      by TomP on Mon Aug 19, 2013 at 10:20:46 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Because the "minority" view ("minority", like (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        coquiero, Johnny Q, 3goldens

        beauty, being in the eyes of the beholder) refuses to interact.  At that point, it's not about the exchange of ideas, but controlling the credible window of discourse.

        FWIW, this diary is now at a 10-to-1 comment to recommend ratio.

        •  I wasn't really looking for a lot of recs (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Morgan Sandlin, Catte Nappe, TomP

          I think the diary and the comment section have been really valuable.

          I blog about my daughter with autism at her website

          by coquiero on Mon Aug 19, 2013 at 10:36:51 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  How does one control (5+ / 0-)

          the credible window of discourse on Daily Kos?  I think you arer inflating the ability of this minority view.    

          I see tons of rec listed diaries condemning the NSA, extolling Greenwald and Snowden, and a few diaries attacking Greenwald.  

          I don't see any "discourse" controlled by opponents of Greenwald or supporters of the current program.  If you let them bait you into irrelevant issues, who's fault is that?    

          I don't know what this means:

          this diary is now at a 10-to-1 comment to recommend ratio.
          I have had many good conversations in diaries with few recommends.  

          Join us on the Black Kos front porch to review news and views written from a black pov—everyone is welcome.

          by TomP on Mon Aug 19, 2013 at 10:37:55 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  So? (6+ / 0-)
          10-to-1 comment to recommend ratio
          Many of the best diaries are. It's not just a marker for flame wars. It's also a marker for diaries involving in depth discussion. People can only rec once, but can comment mulitple times. It's the content of the comments that matters.

          “Texas is a so-called red state, but you’ve got 10 million Democrats here in Texas. And …, there are a whole lot of people here in Texas who need us, and who need us to fight for them.” President Obama

          by Catte Nappe on Mon Aug 19, 2013 at 10:52:38 AM PDT

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        •  And if Reggid were "nicer"? (5+ / 0-)

          You think that would stop the names and the insults? Would you, personally, commend him for his civil tone, and engage in the same way? Or would it still be Stasi this, Nazi that?

          I've written a few things on the NSA issue. I've made a real effort to state my position clearly and without rancor or hostility toward people who may not agree. In response, the treatment I've gotten has been identical to what Reggid gets. So why should I even bother. It's looking more and more like Reggid is the smart one and I'm the idiot.

          I believe--and here's silly old me, giving you the benefit of the doubt again--that most of you folks genuinely do not realize how abusive you really are.

      •  Reggid's diary of today is in my mind an (6+ / 0-)

        excellent example of why Dkos NSA diaries are simply useless.

        When I viewed his diary today it had over 20 HR's even though the diary was sourced, substantive and presented an opinion that is not unheard of regarding Greenwald's conduct.

        HRing on the basis of disagreement and to attempt to control the debate and suppress discussion is not something I like to see at Dkos and it certainly reflects poorly on those individuals who are taking that action.

        Wonders are many, but none so wonderful as man.

        by Morgan Sandlin on Mon Aug 19, 2013 at 10:38:47 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  The HRs reflect symbolic violence. (4+ / 0-)

          If seen that way, the dynamic becomes more clear.   I glanced at his diary, did not recommend, and did not agree.  But some people who deify the consitutition here when it comes to the 4th Amendment, have issues with the pricniples of free speech when that speech disgrees.  Daily Kos allows Reggid the right to have opinions, even wrong ones.

          Join us on the Black Kos front porch to review news and views written from a black pov—everyone is welcome.

          by TomP on Mon Aug 19, 2013 at 10:53:38 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  I don't dismiss the issue, (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      TomP, Morgan Sandlin

      I dismiss the behavior as a flame war.

      Can you honestly say that these diaries are not flame wars?

      I blog about my daughter with autism at her website

      by coquiero on Mon Aug 19, 2013 at 10:23:03 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Again, what is the purpose of a flame war if not (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        coquiero

        to control the discourse? Both parties are resolve to establish the meme for further interaction. For your part, you're ignoring the distinction. This could safely be described as a Broderist reaction.

        Dismissing heated dissent as a flame war is to concede the point of the would-be dismissed.

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