Skip to main content

View Diary: Propaganda War (188 comments)

Comment Preferences

  •  marxism itself (9+ / 0-)

    had so many internal problems, particularly as applied. my reading of marx was that there would be more evolution than what we think of as revolution. but i also think a dogmatic and purely materialistic ideology necessarily alienates too much of the populace.

    i do think false consciousness is a big part of the problem, as we see to a stunning degree right now, all around us. ultimately, it all comes down to questions of consciousness, and the ease with which people are distracted and deluded.

    The cold passion for truth hunts in no pack. -Robinson Jeffers

    by Laurence Lewis on Mon Aug 19, 2013 at 10:55:06 AM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  I have a problem with the concept of (9+ / 0-)

      "false consciounsess," although when I was more of a Marxist I beleived in it.  I think it takes away agency from people.  

      Join us on the Black Kos front porch to review news and views written from a black pov—everyone is welcome.

      by TomP on Mon Aug 19, 2013 at 10:59:04 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Successful propaganda means false (5+ / 0-)

      consciousness.  People are swimming in an ocean of opinions and news items.   The pyschosocio milieu is that ocean, and immersed in this ocean it is extremely difficult to see the water for what it is.  

      But a few eccentric and/or extremely analytic people are fated to see some of what the masses cannot.  The Snowdens of the world are few and far between.  We should try to recognize these heros for what they are.  They pull the shades from our eyes.

      An illusion can never be destroyed directly... SK.

      by Thomas Twinnings on Mon Aug 19, 2013 at 11:17:12 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I just don't see the "massses" that way. (13+ / 0-)

        I came from the working class and worked as a blue colleqe worker for 10 years before going to college and then law school.  

        The "masses" are not as dumb as some think they are and they do not need heroic middle class "revolutionaires" to open their eyes for them.   It is only from spearating one's self from the people that one sees them with derision.

        And I say that as one who believes, on balance, that Snowden acted with courage.  

        Join us on the Black Kos front porch to review news and views written from a black pov—everyone is welcome.

        by TomP on Mon Aug 19, 2013 at 11:52:45 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Agree, Tom. (8+ / 0-)

          There is something genuinely undemocratic (small "d") about a generalized claim that some are closer to "the truth" than others due to some powerful insight that the more ignorant masses are not privy to or are unable to divine.

          Calling other DKos members "weenies" is a personal insult and therefore against site rules.

          by Bob Johnson on Mon Aug 19, 2013 at 12:13:31 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  So now those who speak up against propaganda (0+ / 0-)

            are tyrants wannabe?  That's very scary; they're "undemocratic" because they bring up the issue of how the ruling elite engages in propaganda against the citizenry.  Something that's verified and well-documented.

            But bring it up, and you're suspect.  It ain't going to work.

            If there are undemocratic forces, they are those who under the cloak of secrecy and influence peddling corruption collude to spread lies and misinformation to the citizenry.  Those are the real undemocratic forces Bob.

            •  Um, no, that's not what I wrote at all, Ray. (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              AoT, TomP, Sylv

              Here is what I wrote:

              There is something genuinely undemocratic (small "d") about a generalized claim that some are closer to "the truth" than others due to some powerful insight that the more ignorant masses are not privy to or are unable to divine.
              Here is what you wrote, line-by-line, in response:
              So now those who speak up against propaganda are tyrants wannabe?
              Where did I write or imply that?
              That's very scary; they're "undemocratic" because they bring up the issue of how the ruling elite engages in propaganda against the citizenry.
              Who is "they," Ray? I was talking about a general notion, a belief, in my post, not about individuals.
              Something that's verified and well-documented.
              Now you switch from a discussion of people to a discussion of facts. Facts are not people.

              Then you switch back to people:

              But bring it up, and you're suspect.  It ain't going to work.
              Where did I ever write or imply any such thing, Ray?

              You finish with this:

              If there are undemocratic forces, they are those who under the cloak of secrecy and influence peddling corruption collude to spread lies and misinformation to the citizenry.  Those are the real undemocratic forces Bob.
              Again, reread what I wrote. I was describing a belief or a notion that "some are closer to 'the truth' than others due to some powerful insight that the more ignorant masses are not privy to or are unable to divine."

              That is the "undemocratic" belief I was highlighting.

              What you write about are policies and procedures, cloaked in secrecy, that are undemocratic. I agree!

              But that does not preclude the notions I highlight in my post as also being undemocratic, Ray.

              Calling other DKos members "weenies" is a personal insult and therefore against site rules.

              by Bob Johnson on Mon Aug 19, 2013 at 02:23:09 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

        •  Nevertheless (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          TomP, Ray Pensador

          you will admit there are some worth reading.  I admire Richard D. Wolff.   http://en.wikipedia.org/...

          An illusion can never be destroyed directly... SK.

          by Thomas Twinnings on Mon Aug 19, 2013 at 12:23:59 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  You seem to be putting an extraordinary amount (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          lostinamerica

          of effort in defending the status quo.  I do find that interesting.

          First of all, if one really wants to understand these issues objectively, our own personal histories are pretty much irrelevant.  They are irrelevant in the same way one would want to understand climate change from the prism of our personal experiences.

          Second, once you put it like that--that one is saying that the masses are dumb and need "revolutionary" saviors--of course is hard to support that view.

          I see it as just another clever way of attacking and discrediting the messenger... Bring this issue of propaganda up, and be immediately labeled an outsider, a revolutionary-wannabe, one that wants to be separated from "the rest of us."

          If the characterization sticks, then you've succeeded in undermining the person, i.e., messenger, and with it the message itself.

          It's not going to be that easy.  Here's a direct challenge for you:

          It is a well-documented fact that we as a country were misled to support the Iraq war through propaganda...

          As I pointed out, many people, including Noam Chomsky, Chris Hedges, and Naomi Klein have all discussed this issue of mass manipulation and propaganda at length.

          Now, after basic observation about how the system works, I've come to similar conclusions.  I actually (almost) full agreement with these people.

          What do you have to say specifically about this?  Do entrenched powers/interests, the ruling class, engage in manipulative propaganda against masses or not?

          You see.  I'm pushing back the focus you've put on me, on me possibly being a lone wolf, someone with suspect views, someone who may be alienated (according to your characterization) back to the topic at hand.

          Try it.

          •  I think you are misunderstanding what he's saying (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            TomP, ricklewsive, Sylv

            He's not defending the status quo, he's noting the practical issues around liberation and revolution and the working class as seen through the eyes of history.

            I disagree with some of it, but I think the first step is to acknowledge that we all agree here that there is propaganda. TomP has said as much elsewhere. I agree with that. What we're disagreeing with is how and who and how much that propaganda effects people. It's an unfortunate fact that sometimes the truth support the status quo. Of course, how it supports it is the important part.

            If debt were a moral issue then, lacking morals, corporations could never be in debt.

            by AoT on Mon Aug 19, 2013 at 02:14:52 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  A whole lot depends on which 'masses' (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          TomP, Ray Pensador

          you're talking about -- and which awarenesses (which I think is a better modern word for 'consciousness', in context).

          I don't see derision in the comment you're responding to, though of course I understand historically where that comes from. "We have been lied to, and I figured it out" is not inherently derisive, after all.

Subscribe or Donate to support Daily Kos.

Click here for the mobile view of the site