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View Diary: Israel Is Behind the Military's Removal of Morsi in Egypt - Turkish PM Claims (105 comments)

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  •  A question .... (9+ / 0-)

    Is there not a difference between "blaming the Jews", and apportioning some of the responsibility to the State of Israel?

    I understand that Israel defines itself as a "Jewish State", hence the religion is part of how that country identifies itself, but to everyone else, Israel is a country and not deserving of special privileges any more than self-identified Muslim States.

    Blaming Israel is probably naive, because as a country in the region, they are part of both the problem and the solution, and in any event, I fail to see why America thinks it is our problem to solve.

    I hope that the quality of debate will improve,
    but I fear we will remain Democrats.

    Who is twigg?

    by twigg on Tue Aug 20, 2013 at 06:31:00 AM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  Twiddle twaddle. (17+ / 0-)

      Blaiming Israel for the Egyptian civil unrest is just the same old bs.  

      As one who long supported a two-state solution, long before it was cool, I tire of the blame the Jews for ewverything outlook of bigots like Erdogan.  

      The Muslim Brotherhood was founded in the 1920s.  It fought Nasser.   This is a dispute between Egyptian nationalists and Muslim internationalists to some degree.  It is an internal dispute.  Israel is quite secondary.

      Join us on the Black Kos front porch to review news and views written from a black pov—everyone is welcome.

      by TomP on Tue Aug 20, 2013 at 06:33:54 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Define "twiddle twaddle" (6+ / 0-)

        I asked a perfectly respectable question.

        I hope that the quality of debate will improve,
        but I fear we will remain Democrats.

        Who is twigg?

        by twigg on Tue Aug 20, 2013 at 06:35:05 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  What gives credence to this are neocon (6+ / 0-)

        documents like Richard Perle's "A Clean Break: A New Strategy for Securing the Realm," or this: http://upload.wikimedia.org/...

        The neocon dream of breaking up the Arab states into tiny quarreling ethnic enclaves is largely forgotten here, but in the rest of the world it is still taken seriously.

        Keep in mind that the neocon regime was in control of the US until 2009 and neocons are still influential in the Obama administration. The "Arab Spring" as it has turned out resmebles the neocon wet dream.
        I can see where Erdogan is coming from.

        •  You can see where Erdogan is coming from?! (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Hey338Too, Kane in CA

          Really?

          Nice to see that we have Kossacks who can see where anti-semites like Erdogan are coming from....

          "A candle loses nothing by lighting another candle" - Mohammed Nabbous, R.I.P.

          by Lawrence on Tue Aug 20, 2013 at 08:29:22 AM PDT

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          •  Whether or not Erdogan is antisemitic (5+ / 0-)

            is neither here nor there.
             But it is only fair to note that Erdogan has called antisemitism "a crime against humanity:" http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/...
            Criticism of Israel is not, per se, anti-semitic. Suspicion that a right wing Israeli government might be involved in events that are exactly like what right wing Israelis and their American supporters were publicly wishing for is, IMHO, a reasonable suspicion.
               If you'll recall, Erdogan's Turkey was Israel's best friend in the region until Israel's bloody demolition of Gaza in 2008-2009 and the later Israeli massacre of Turkish citizens aboard a ship bringing humanitarian aid to Gaza.
              Although many Turks regarded the Israeli attack on the aid ship an act of war, Erdogan did try to mend Turkey's relationship with Israel. He has generally been very conciliatory toward Israel, even in the face of provocation.
              I don't think that Erdogan is the best possible leader for Turkey, but to call him anti-semitic is to ignore the Israeli role in destroying the relationship between Israel and Turkey.

            •  Ok, I get it. (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Kane in CA, Hey338Too, livosh1

              You buy into Erdogan's Israel is at the bottom of everything conspiracy theory b.s.  You know, because, as Erdogan said, a jew was involved, so it must be Israel, right?

              People who are willing to go to such great lengths because they despise Israel never cease to amaze me.

              I remember dealing with these types of conspiracy theories non-stop during the liveblogging of the Libyan Revolution.

              BTW, criticism of Israel is not necessarily anti-semitism, but there sure are a lot of critics out there who are anti-semites.

              "A candle loses nothing by lighting another candle" - Mohammed Nabbous, R.I.P.

              by Lawrence on Tue Aug 20, 2013 at 10:36:54 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Lawrence - I see that you are unreasonable on this (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Sandino

                topic. And, of course, any criticism of Israel, even implied, is anti-semitic.
                   The fact is, I don't know if Erdogan really has the documents that he says he has. But, I don't believe a priori, that he is just making stuff up. I'll wait to see if he produces anything.
                 Of course, you obviously have perfect knowledge.
                 Erdogan, remember, was a friend of Israel until Israel's actions made that kind of friendship impossible.

                •  IF you aren't sure whether Erdogan has documents (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  AoT, Lawrence

                  Then you've got issues.

                  Anyone not predisposed to believe in Jewish conspiracies would have enough sense to realize he's making this shit up.

                  Coming Soon -- to an Internet connection near you: Armisticeproject.org

                  by FischFry on Tue Aug 20, 2013 at 12:31:28 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  FischFry - How would I know what (0+ / 0-)

                    documents he may or may not have?
                      What about Erdogan's history would lead to the conclusion that he is making something up?
                    Why should I assume that a head of government is lying when he says he has documents?
                     My inclination is to wait and see.
                     (Apparently he is basing his claim on a news conference involving a French and an Israeli official, which is not what I'd consider proof. Of course, that assumes that WaPo's reporting is accurate.)
                    FWIW, I doubt that the Egyptian military would have thrown out Morsi without a go-ahead from the US.

                    •  Not a French official (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Lawrence

                      Comments 2 years ago by a Jewish French philosopher.

                      Here's what Erdogan said:

                      “What is said about Egypt? That democracy is not the ballot box. Who is behind this? Israel is. We have the evidence in our hands,” Erdogan said in a televised address to officials from his Islamic-rooted, ruling party. “That’s exactly what happened.”
                      Know who ACTUALLY said this? Turkey's President, Abdullah Gul. From his wikipedia entry:
                      "On 31 December 2012, he stated with respect to the Arab spring and democratization of the Arab world: "But democracy is not only about elections. The task of creating essential democratic institutions – the rule of law, habits of accountability, gender equality, and freedom of expression and faith – still awaits these countries".[27][28] Gül believes that the Arab world has a long road ahead and that it needs to do more to entrench and embrace democratic government."
                      So, Israel is "behind" what? Behind Gul saying this. or behind trying to bring democratic institutions to Egypt? Israel isn't behind shit. They can't even get Egypt to open their borders to Israeli products.

                      Here's what the Jewish French philosopher said (from the WaPo article you claim to have read)

                      "“If the Muslim Brotherhood arrives in Egypt, I will not say democracy wants it, so let democracy progress. Democracy is not only elections, it is also values.”

                      Pressed further as to whether he would urge Egypt’s military to intervene against the Muslim Brotherhood, Levy says: “I will urge the prevention of them coming to power, but by all sorts of means.”

                      So, if a Jewish-French writer actually said he'd urge the prevention of their coming to power 2 years ago -- well then, that's evidence that Israel is involved in getting rid of them a year after the election?

                      The reason you should know that Erdogan doesn't have those documents is because there's no way his charge is true. Any more than it would be true if I accused you of involvement in the coup.

                      Coming Soon -- to an Internet connection near you: Armisticeproject.org

                      by FischFry on Tue Aug 20, 2013 at 01:59:04 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                •  Erdogan never was a friend of Israel. (0+ / 0-)

                  You are just making shit up now.

                  I suggest you google the anti-semitic and anti-Israel remarks made by Erdogan during his time as mayor of Istanbul.

                  "A candle loses nothing by lighting another candle" - Mohammed Nabbous, R.I.P.

                  by Lawrence on Tue Aug 20, 2013 at 03:48:17 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

            •  Criticism's fair. Inventing dangerous libel isn't. (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Lawrence

              As for calling Erdogan anti-semitic --- no one is basing that on the relationship between the countries. It's based on his saying something so provocative and irresponsible, knowing full well that there is no way it's true.

              When McCarty claimed to have evidence of communists in the State Dept, that was pretty telling about what kind of person he was.

              Coming Soon -- to an Internet connection near you: Armisticeproject.org

              by FischFry on Tue Aug 20, 2013 at 12:30:16 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

    •  It is very simple case of Antisemitsm (15+ / 0-)

      Erdogan's  "proof"  for "Israeli involvement" is his discussion with the French foreign minister who is...gasp....Jewish.

      A discussion that simply stated the truism that democracy is not just the ballot box.

      Oh, and that the MB probably will not last for more than two years in power.

      Wow. This is the proof.

      He made the classic antisemitic assertion that just because someone is Jewish and holds a certain opinion, he must be a representative of Israel and is privy to its motives.

      In other words - all Jews are connected by some vast conspiracy and they all parrot from some text written in the dark dungeons of the Israeli Mossad and Israel is behind everything.

      Queror Ergo Sum. -- Rene Descartes Shakshuka

      by The Revenge of Shakshuka on Tue Aug 20, 2013 at 06:55:09 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  What responsibility? (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Hey338Too

      How the hell  do you think Israel had anything to do with this? You think the Egyptian military even gives a shit what Israelis think, much less does their bidding in a matter and manner like this? Maybe they'll take actions along the border to prevent incidents there, but this a purely internal issue.

      As for oppressing the Brotherhood -- you want history? That started 60 years ago, and Israel and Egypt have fought 3 wars since then. It's got fucking zero to do with Israel.

      Coming Soon -- to an Internet connection near you: Armisticeproject.org

      by FischFry on Tue Aug 20, 2013 at 08:05:04 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I would say you understand little (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Hey338Too

      Israel was founded by Jews who would have described themselves as atheists. While the religion is important to some in Israel, the religion is most important to those who care less about the political state. Indeed, many of those folks are actually troubled by Israel's existence as somehow contrary to prophecy.

      No one was asserting that Israel is deserving of special privileges. The only point being made is that it's ludicrous to suppose that the Egyptian military was overthrown the elected government at Israel's behest. Even if you suppose that Israel is happy to see the Brotherhood overthrown, that doesn't get you very far in arguing that Israel actually played any role.  

      It's moronic to believe -- indicative of a small, paranoid mind that sees evil Jewish hands pulling string everywhere -- and I would assume that anyone with any intelligence making the claim is doing so for the most craven purposes, knowing full well that it cannot be true.

      It's not naive to blame Israel. It's insane, or grotesque and despicable. Someone may think that ti's OK to blame Israel for this and that, because they see Israel as an abomination in it own right -- but the ends do not justify the means. Israel isn't an abstraction. It's millions of people...who might become targets of some deluded clod who believes this claptrap. Anyone pushing the meme will have innocent blood on their hands, whether or not they accept that.

      I hope there's a special place in Hell for Erdogan and anyone else trying to convince people of this vile libel.

      Coming Soon -- to an Internet connection near you: Armisticeproject.org

      by FischFry on Tue Aug 20, 2013 at 12:26:07 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I would have guessed that it went without saying (0+ / 0-)

      that Israel would be active in bringing down Morsi. I don't think that's anti-Semitism. It's just obvious.

      It's also in Iran's/Hezbollah's interest to be involved in Egypt.
      It's also in Saudi Arabia's interests to be involved.
      Then you have the West and Russia and China. (I'm not sure if Pakistan would stick their noses in it, but...)
      Ultimately, Global Wall Street is to blame for its agenda which doesn't include middle class opportunity and jobs .

      You can't make this stuff up.

      by David54 on Tue Aug 20, 2013 at 01:06:23 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

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