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View Diary: Secret FISA Court ruling: NSA illegally collected tens of thousands of domestic communications (385 comments)

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  •  The real point about collecting this information (15+ / 0-)

    and storing it is so there will be something to use against any particular citizen who decides to do something unruly, like protest or strike or organize a movement, or some such.  Anybody who collects all the communications you've ever made can cobble together something in such a way as to make it look guilty of something, spin it, and have an excuse to...well, to do just about whatever they want to you.

    Ou sont les neigedens d'antan?

    by SouthernLiberalinMD on Wed Aug 21, 2013 at 05:14:57 PM PDT

    •  Yep, lunchbox thuggery. In spades. nt (3+ / 0-)

      A true craftsman will meticulously construct the apparatus of his own demise.

      by onionjim on Wed Aug 21, 2013 at 06:01:18 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Did you actually read the opinion and order? (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Tony Situ, mikidee

      There is nothing in there that justifies your opinion that the NSA is "collecting this information and storing it so there will be something to use against an particular citizen." Much to the contrary, the opinion and order state that the technology being used, and the nature of internet communications routing, cause non-targeted communications to be intermingled with validly targeted communications.

      The court found no objection to the collection program, the entirety of the complaint is in how NSA "de-mingles" the targeted communications from non-targeted communications, and the fact that it is not done well. Resulting in the "intentional collection" (in terms of FISA) of non-targeted communications.

      The final page of the order actually permits NSA to continue, with no changes, for 30 days, during which time changes to minimization procedures must be made, or the collections stopped.

      The entirety of the order is about how NSA can STOP collecting domestic communications, which from NSA's perspective are inadvertant, but in the formulation of the court are "intentional" for purposes of FISA, and hence a violation. There is NOTHING here that says that NSA is allowed to, is capable of, or is intending to, collect communications of US Persons within the US.

      •  Re: the court found no objection to the collection (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Thomas Twinnings, CenPhx

        program

        Though apparently pushed beyond endurance in this case by the mendacity of the NSA to make an objection, FISC is not exactly a neutral or trustworthy source, seeing as how they have denied something like 3 requests in their entire history. They are close to being a rubber stamp for the government. That's why this decision is so noteworthy, because even the FISC couldn't condone the behavior of the Executive Branch. But it doesn't make FISC some kind of trustworthy reliable "good guy" whose judgement on the collection programs we should trust.

        Re:  

        The entirety of the order is about how NSA can STOP collecting domestic communications, which from NSA's perspective are inadvertant, but in the formulation of the court are "intentional" for purposes of FISA, and hence a violation. There is NOTHING here that says that NSA is allowed to, is capable of, or is intending to, collect communications of US Persons within the US.
        But it hasn't stopped domestic collections, has it?

        Ou sont les neigedens d'antan?

        by SouthernLiberalinMD on Thu Aug 22, 2013 at 07:08:39 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Onc again, Lawfare has some really (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        ricklewsive, guyeda, Tortmaster

        excellent reporting on yesterday's documents.

        The NSA Documents, Part I: Introduction briefly introduces its upcoming discussions of the various FISC orders as follows:

        Yet the story these documents tell is actually complicated. It involves a fascinating, iterative back-and-forth over many months between the executive branch and the FISA Court. It involves remarkable self-reporting by the executive branch—both to the court and to the Congress. It involves a court that looks anything like a rubber stamp. It involves a significant rebuke by that court to the government both for the substance of its activities and for the accuracy of a series of representations it had made in the past. And it involves a swift effort by the government to correct the problem—one that within a few weeks the court accepted.
        The NSA Documents, Part II: The October 2011 FISC Opinion has some interesting commentary on how the government disclosed the problems with its "upstream" collection:
        For starters, Judge Bates became aware of the problem because the government itself brought it to his attention. And their dialog over the subject offers a window into just how robust actual FISC oversight of intelligence operations really is.

        The issue arose in the context of a government application for reauthorization of 702 collection. After filing this application, the government—on May 2, 2011—wrote a letter of “clarification” describing how certain “upstream collection” of internet communications included what are called “transactions.”

        ...This disclosure by the government led to a months-long back-and-forth between the government and the court. From May through September, the government provided answers to the court’s questions about this form of collection. There were written submissions and meetings between the court staff and the Justice Department. There was a hearing. There were extensions of time so the government could answer questions fully. And at the end of this process, Judge Bates okayed most of what the government was seeking, but he also had problems.

        The NSA Documents, Part III: The November 2011 FISC Opinion ddiscusses how the FISC found the government adequately addressed the minimization problems identified by the FISC in its earlier order:
        The NSA’s original minimization procedures were most problematic in that they tended toward the indiscriminate retention of information, rather than imposing robust requirements as to the identification and segregation of information not relevant to foreign intelligence. Judge Bates, however, finds that these three changes discussed above cumulatively adequately address the deficiencies identified in his October 3 opinion, and that the newly proposed minimization procedures meet the requirements of both 50 U.S.C. s 1801(h)(1) and the Fourth Amendment.
        The NSA Documents, Part IV: The September 2012 FISC Opinion discusses the FISC's review of how the government dealt with the issue of what it had collected before adopting the minimization procedures required by the FISC.

        Interesting stuff, and worth reading for a good overview of FISC review in action.

        Out with the gloomage - in with the plumage!

        by mikidee on Thu Aug 22, 2013 at 09:03:30 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  That's quite a reach there. (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Tony Situ, ladasue, mikidee

      "Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." --M. L. King "You can't fix stupid" --Ron White -6.00, -5.18

      by zenbassoon on Wed Aug 21, 2013 at 09:03:19 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I have to assume that neither you nor those (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      ladasue

      that rec'ed your comment bothered to read the ruling or even a brief analysis of the ruling.  Your comment has absolutely no basis.

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