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View Diary: Secret FISA Court ruling: NSA illegally collected tens of thousands of domestic communications (385 comments)

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  •  So you trust the ones that have been shown to be (5+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    DeadHead, Dallasdoc, JVolvo, CenPhx, eps62

    lying and discount the ones pulling back the curtain.
       You should reconsider your blind loyalties.

    •  kharma! I swear that ... (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      kharma, Reggid

      ... I was already going to do a diary entitled, "What happens when you pull back the curtain and find a real wizard?"

      On to your statement, Clapper was placed in a Catch-22 situation where he had to either admit to the existence of the Top Secret NSA program or basically lie. There are negative enforcers for each scenario, but, in the end, it was the perfect spy version of the old, "So, have you stopped beating your wife" question. For most people, they realize that keeping national secrets secret is a good thing, so they cut him some slack.

      People like Greenwald, on the other hand, are just around to create a circus. There's no debating an idealogue like him because the ends always justify the means. That has been evidenced from day one of the Snowden Affair.

      I have suggested ways to improve the system, and I will continue to do so in the future, but I realize that the world is many shades of grey, and that privacy and foreign intelligence are important.  

      (I swear I was going to write that diary, though, on everything holy, and I'm still going to write it, but that really was, like, instant karma!)

      Rand Paul is to civil liberties as the Disney Channel is to subtle and nuanced acting.

      by Tortmaster on Thu Aug 22, 2013 at 04:25:36 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Well I will read it and try to at least (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Tortmaster, JVolvo, eps62

        see your point of view, and even rec it if it's not some divisive diary like I've been seeing lately.  I don't think obnoxious diggeR diaries help the discussion, even though they do make entertaining snarkathons with all the red-faced foot stomping and such.

      •  A question (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Dallasdoc, JVolvo, Tortmaster, eps62

        In your opinion, why is this surveillance thing buried so deeply in top secret that it requires it's director to lie to congress? That seems a little odd given that any serious enemy and most foreign friends pretty much have to assume their electronic communications are vulnerable and probably being peeked at. So who are these programs hiding from?

        Growth for the sake of growth is the ideology of the cancer cell. --Edward Abbey

        by ricklewsive on Thu Aug 22, 2013 at 06:02:11 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  While I was reading the ... (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          ricklewsive, Reggid, eps62

          ... opinion, ricklewsive, I came up with a possible reason. Remember how the old mafia used to have telephone communications between their spouses for five or ten minutes before the "bosses" got on the phone? That was dramatized in the movie Casino, in a phone call between Pesci and DeNiro. They exploited a law that they knew was on the books. The Feds could only wiretap for X number of minutes, and if it was a personal communication, they had to stop the wiretap. Well, what if the terrorists decided to put U.S. Person Information at the beginning and end of each of their emails? For example:

          Did you hear about the big ballgame? I was so mad! The coach should have put in this player and not that one ....

          Proceed with plan to blow up target.

          Say hello to the Misses from me. Alice says Hi! And keep on trucking!

          In other words, if all the parameters are known, they can be easily exploited.

          Rand Paul is to civil liberties as the Disney Channel is to subtle and nuanced acting.

          by Tortmaster on Thu Aug 22, 2013 at 07:17:55 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Thanks for the response (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            eps62, Tortmaster

            I would agree that getting too deep into the techniques in a public way could produce some issues with regards to effectiveness, but I don't think Senator Wyden was asking the DNI to blow the project.

            During a Senate Intelligence Committee hearing Wyden asked Clapper whether the National Security Agency collects “any type of data at all on millions of Americans.” Clapper responded, “No, sir” — a response that seems to run contrary to the revelations of the past week concerning the NSA’s broad phone record collection efforts.
            The Washington Post

            It would seem the programs could operate with an acceptable level of secrecy something short of "I could tell you but then I'd have to kill you." My concern is that this level of secrecy might be less intended to protect the effectiveness of the programs than to protect the programs themselves*.

            *Granting that the people running the programs felt they might need some protection from the politics of the Congress. Who doesn't?

            Growth for the sake of growth is the ideology of the cancer cell. --Edward Abbey

            by ricklewsive on Thu Aug 22, 2013 at 08:11:08 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

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