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View Diary: NSA Monitored ALL Salt Lake City Texts/Emails For 6 Months (202 comments)

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  •  So, where is all the abuse? Why is it all anyone (0+ / 0-)

    . . .including Greenald can site are old examples?

    Do you think that after all this time, that's just coincidence?

    Or do you think that maybe that fact that all of these cited abuses occurred under Bush, before 2008 FISA and Hamdan, means that maybe, just maybe, the legal framework has significantly changed?

    •  Where is the abuse? (6+ / 0-)

      Well, one way to look at this is that earlier you insinuated that the government spent hundreds of billions of dollars to set up a system that would not be used.

      That certainly is abuse in my way of thinking in at least 2 ways

      1) it walks right into the RW meme of wasteful government spending

      2) these $$s could have been spent where they are actually needed (e.g,. to support the NIH, which is actually attacking something that actually is harming large numbers of Americans - i.e., disease - but is forced to do so on a shoestring compared to what the security-military industrial complex gets).

      •  Not a system that would not be used (0+ / 0-)

        but a system that would not be used against us, unless with a warrant.

        Now, it seems to me there's a discussion to be had about whether our government ought to be spying on the rest of the world at its own whim. It's similar to the discussion we could have about whether our government ought to be able to order a drone strike on anyone in the world without any oversight.

        Somehow, though, many here seem to care only when the putative target of spying or drones is someone with American citizenship.

    •  Reggid, I asked you in another diary ... (4+ / 0-)

      ... and didn't receive an answer:

      At what point will it be too much for you?  What will have to happen for you to stop defending and rationalizing the NSA spying programs?

      When Senators who sit on the intelligence committee have been warning us for years about NSA overreach, saying Americans would be appalled by what is going on ("is" going on, not "was") ...  

      And when one of those senators said in the last week -- that's fairly recent, not years ago -- that what we are now seeing is just the tip of the iceberg ...

      Doesn't that concern you even a little bit?

      Aren't you even curious about what is going on that we don't know about?  About what is so much worrying certain members of Congress who actually do know something about it?  

      Also, to answer your question, "Where is the abuse?"

      When the president and NSA say unequivocably, "There is no spying on Americans" and "There is no sweeping surveillance collecting the calls and internet usage on Americans" ...

      ... and then they're forced to admit, "Well, yes there is.  But we're not listening to the actual content"  ...  

      ... and then they're forced to admit, "Well, yes we are.  But it's limited" ...  [etc.]

      Don't you think blatant lying to the American public and to Congress counts as "abuse"?

    •  We are not permitted to obtain that information (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      greenbell, Enzo Valenzetti

      The information is cloaked with a veil of secrecy. We don't know the extent of current abuse because we aren't permitted to even ask the question, and those of our elected representatives who have asked the question are not permitted to tell us the answer. The way we know there is still abuse is that certain of our senators tell us there are serious problems, but they aren't permitted to tell us what those problems are. That's the thing about secrecy, why it is antithetical to democracy. You can't know that which you are not permitted to know.

      "Some folks rob you with a six-gun, some rob you with a fountain pen." - Woody Guthrie

      by Involuntary Exile on Thu Aug 22, 2013 at 12:27:06 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

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