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View Diary: NSA used against Kim Dotcom in NZ copyright battle (83 comments)

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  •  Doesn't the NSA have the authority to "spy" on (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Hey338Too, koNko

    any non-US citizen?  What's the problem?

    "Because I am a river to my people."

    by lordcopper on Fri Aug 23, 2013 at 02:13:25 PM PDT

    •  Just because they can (10+ / 0-)

      doesn't mean they should.

      Government and laws are the agreement we all make to secure everyone's freedom.

      by Simplify on Fri Aug 23, 2013 at 02:33:14 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  He is also a suspected criminal that was under (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        lordcopper, Hey338Too

        investigation.  I think the NSA was more than justified.

        Right man, right job and right time

        by Ianb007 on Fri Aug 23, 2013 at 02:45:08 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  The NSA is part of the military. (12+ / 0-)

          FBI, that could be legitimate. NSA, no.

          Government and laws are the agreement we all make to secure everyone's freedom.

          by Simplify on Fri Aug 23, 2013 at 02:51:07 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  No it is not part of the military. It is it's own (0+ / 0-)

            separate agency.

            Right man, right job and right time

            by Ianb007 on Fri Aug 23, 2013 at 03:11:15 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  NSA is part of DOD. The Director of NSA (DIRNSA) (17+ / 0-)

              is always a flag-rank military officer (usually an O9 lieutenant general or vice admiral).    

              DIRNSA has three hats.  He also heads the Central Security Service (an interservice branch of the military that performs military signals intelligence tasks) and the United States Cyber Command (a military sub-unified command subordinate to the United States Strategic Command).  The headquarters of all three organizations are at Fort Meade, MD, an Army post.

              The influence of the [executive] has increased, is increasing, and ought to be diminished.

              by lysias on Fri Aug 23, 2013 at 03:38:29 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  The DOD is not the same as the military (0+ / 0-)

                The DOD has many departments of which the military is one, really three.  The NSA is one of the agencies under the national security part of the DOD not the armed forces.  Yes they supply intelligence to the military routinely but they also supply intelligence to the FBI and other agencies which is why DOTCOM was tracked by the NSA.  

                Right man, right job and right time

                by Ianb007 on Fri Aug 23, 2013 at 04:24:04 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  military isn't the same as armed forces either (4+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Just Bob, lysias, K S LaVida, kurt

                  NSA is a military agency. The director by law has to be a commissioned officer, and the highest ranking civilian reports to him.

                  To the extent that posse comitatus and stuff like that apply, the NSA is military.

                  •  Ok we can go back and forth on this. (0+ / 0-)

                    if you go to the NSA site you will see their mission statements which leads me back to my original point.  The NSA is well within it's authority to track the activities of DOTCOM.

                    Right man, right job and right time

                    by Ianb007 on Fri Aug 23, 2013 at 06:52:46 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  I seriously doubt it (3+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      koNko, lysias, kurt

                      The NSA's charge is to protect national security, not to do shit-ass police work on behalf of any old case. The US had no right to demand Dotcom's arrest, given that Dotcom had been cooperating with takedown requests and other US government requests, and he was neither an American nor in the US.

                      If they could go after Dotcom, they could go after any old marijuana smoker, including medical. Or anything else they felt like.  That's not DoD's job.

                    •  You are simply wrong (0+ / 0-)

                      First, your assertion that the DoD is not "military" is ridiculous; in the USA, the DoD is the top level command of all military branches and your arguments to the contrary are simply nonsense.

                      Secondly, under the Cyber Command  (USCYBERCOM), the NSA director has direct command over the cyber activities of several branches of the military service.

                      If you can't be bothered to check a few facts, I suggest you avoid arguing and disrupting these threads, it's annoying and possibly a violation of site rules.

                      •  Ok this is going nowhere. (0+ / 0-)

                        First I never said That the DOD is not military,  I said the NSA is not part of the military.  The fact that it is under the DOD does not make it part of the military.

                        To just alleviate this silly back and forth over semantics and definitions,  Let's just go to the DOD website and end this debate of what is military or not.

                        From the horses mouth:

                        http://odam.defense.gov/...

                        The Department of Defense (DoD) is responsible for providing the military forces needed to deter war and protect the security of the United States (U.S.).  The major elements of these forces are the Army, Navy, Air Force, and Marine Corps.  The President is the Commander-in-Chief, while the Secretary of Defense exercises authority, direction, and control over the Department.  This includes the Office of the Secretary of Defense, Organization of the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, the three Military Departments, the Combatant Commands, the Office of the Inspector General, 17 Defense Agencies, 10 DoD Field Activities, and other organizations, such as the National Guard Bureau (NGB) and the Joint Improvised Explosive Device Defeat Organization (JIEDDO).  
                        Got it?   there are three military dept under the DOD.  The Army, The Navy and The Air Force.  The NSA is not under of any of these.  It's a Defense agency separate from the military part.  That's how the DOD has defined the different depts under it's jurisdiction, not me.

                        If you and others want to define every thing in the DOD as the military then that's your prerogative and I'm done arguing this silly point.

                        The original more germane point I was making is that the NSA is within it's right to monitor DOTCOM because they are an intelligence agent that by law shares it intel with different agencies in the GOVT including the FBI which is/was investigating him.

                        As a matter of fact if you go to the NSA website and see the latest presidential order about the NSA and it's duties, you will see that they are the only agency allowed to monitor signals i/e signet in the govt. Unless a different dept is delegated to do so by the Secretary of defense.

                        (b) National Security Agency, whose responsibilities shall include:
                        (1) Establishment and operation of an effective unified organization for signals intelligence activities, except for the delegation of operational control over certain operations that are conducted through other elements of the Intelligence Community. No other department or agency may engage in signals intelligence activities except pursuant to a delegation by the Secretary of Defense;
                        http://www.nsa.gov/...

                        In other words there was no other agency that could monitor DOTCOM's internet activities without the NSA.

                        Right man, right job and right time

                        by Ianb007 on Sat Aug 24, 2013 at 12:17:00 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

            •  NSA is part of DoD (5+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              bastrop, Dianna, mrkvica, stevemb, kurt

              http://en.wikipedia.org/...

              The National Security Agency (NSA) is the central producer and manager of signals intelligence for the United States. Estimated to be the largest of U.S. intelligence organizations in terms of personnel and budget,[8] the NSA operates under the jurisdiction of the Department of Defense and reports to the Director of National Intelligence.

              Others have simply gotten old. I prefer to think I've been tempered by time.

              by Just Bob on Fri Aug 23, 2013 at 04:03:41 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Thanks for clarifying this everyone (4+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                stevemb, Just Bob, Simplify, StrayCat

                I made a comment about Hayden in his Class A uniform the other day and stated that NSA was wholly separate from DoD. Will not make that mistake in future now. Thank you Just Bob, puppet government, Ianb007, lysias, Simplify.

                The place was utterly dark—the oubliette, as I suppose, of their accursed convent.

                by bastrop on Fri Aug 23, 2013 at 05:20:21 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

            •  No, you are mistaken (0+ / 0-)

              Nothing personal, but your comments on this thread suggest you have fundamental mis-conceptions about the NSA so you might want to acquaint yourself with the agency's history and mission.

              Try this for a starter.

              •  The NSA is not part of the military it's a (0+ / 0-)

                separate agency under the jurisdiction of the DoD.  This is according to how the Dod defines the military.  You may want to read the Dod website and see the command structure.  Even in the history of the NSA in the WIKI link you provided, it's predecessor the AFSA was different to MILITARY INTELLIGENCE.

                This organization was originally established within the U.S. Department of Defense under the command of the Joint Chiefs of Staff.[15] The AFSA was to direct Department of Defense communications and electronic intelligence activities, except those of U.S. military intelligence units
                I believe it's you that have misconceptions.

                Right man, right job and right time

                by Ianb007 on Sat Aug 24, 2013 at 01:42:48 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  You keep arguing that (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  K S LaVida

                  But you are not convincing anyone because your basic reasoning is faulty.

                  Let's take this step by step:

                  In the USA, all military functions are under the DoD and therefore all Departments and Agencies under the DoD are military agencies with military budgets and under military command.

                  The NSA (responsible for signals intelligence) and it's sister organization the DIA (responsible for foreign military intelligence) are military organizations with military missions and required to be commanded by active military officers of minimum specified rank.

                  Furthermore, the NSA director is also heads the Cyber Command with direct command authority across several functional branches of the Army, Navy and Air Forces including not just signals intelligence but also command authority of conventional forces.

                  Likewise, the commander of the DIA also chairs the Military Intelligence Board, which coordinates over ally military intelligence operations across the services, and has it's own  Clandestine Services branch conducting conventional espionage.

                  Now let's review:

                  - Under the DoD. Check.
                  - Under military command. Check.
                  - Under military budget. Check.
                  - Commanding military personnel and activities. Check.
                  - Conducting military intelligence operations. Check.

                  Conclusion: Part of the military, by any definition.

                  Now we are making process.

                  Perhaps it is helpful to contrast other non-military organizations to these military organizations to understand the difference better.

                  The CIA has executive branch departmental status equivelent to the DoD, DoT, DoJ etc. It is a non-military intelligence organization under a Secretary that is not required to be a military commander because it is not a military organization, and to serve, a military person would have to retire their military command to do so such as Petraeus.

                  The FBI is a branch of the Justice Department and tasked with investigating domestic criminal activity in violation of federal law. Likewise it is headed by civilians and has no military functions or authority.

                  The above two are examples of non-military organizations.

                  The NSA is a military organization. The Director of the NSA is a military commander with authority over military activities and military assets to fulfill a military mission.

                  It's not that complicated.

                  •  There are many errors in your logic and post. (0+ / 0-)

                    Just see http://www.dailykos.com/...

                    All dept under the DoD are not military

                    In the USA, all military functions are under the DoD and therefore all Departments and Agencies under the DoD are military agencies with military budgets and under military command.
                    That is your first erroneous assumption.  Just because all military depts are under the DoD does not mean all Depts in the DoD are military. There are many agencies under that DoD that do not have military personnel as the head of the agency.

                    For example

                    The NGA

                    Or the other numerous agencies and depts under the DoD

                    http://www.defense.gov/...

                     The DoD website has it's organization tree and description for all to see.  It lists the NSA as a defense agency not a military agency. As a matter of fact the term military agency is not even used.  It lists the 3 Military Depts as The Army The Navy and the Air Force.

                    http://odam.defense.gov/...

                    For the love of God read the DoD website don't take my word for it.

                    The NSA is a military organization. The Director of the NSA is a military commander with authority over military activities and military assets to fulfill a military mission.
                    Yes the Director of the NSA is always a military officer but that is because he is also wearing two other hats. The Central security device being the main other one. The dead give away to the error of your logic should be the fact the the NSA second in command is a civilian  The military does not have civilians in their command structure.

                     The CSS is the Liaison between the military and the NSA
                    From the NSA website.

                    The Central Security Service (CSS) provides timely and accurate cryptologic support, knowledge, and assistance to the military cryptologic community.
                    Meaning the Military cryptologic community is separate and different to the NSA.

                    From the NSA/CSS brochure

                    http://www.nsa.gov/...

                    The mission of the National Security Agency (NSA) and its military component, the Central Security Service (CSS), is focused on saving lives, defending vital networks, and exploiting the foreign communications of adversaries. On behalf of the dedicated employees of America’s cryptologic organization, I appreciate your taking the time to learn about this unique national asset.
                    Every day, we provide valuable intelligence on issues of concern to all Americans—such as international terrorism, cyber crime, narcotics trafficking, and the proliferation of weapons of mass destruction. Our customers range from U.S. decisionmakers to service personnel who are in harm’s way.
                    So you are again wrong.  The NSA does not have a military mission  It's an intelligence gathering agency which back to my original point was within it's right to track Mr. DOTCOM because he was engaged in Cybercrime.  Hence the silliness of this diary.

                    If the info from the DoD and NSA website can't convince you and the others of your erroneous assumptions then I can't really help you.  I have taken my time to link and quote information right from the official websites.  You and others cannot do the same because no where on their Website does it say:

                    The NSA is a military organization. The Director of the NSA is a military commander with authority over military activities and military assets to fulfill a military mission.
                    I challenge you to find on either the NSA or the DoD such a claim that you made that I quoted above.

                    Right man, right job and right time

                    by Ianb007 on Sun Aug 25, 2013 at 03:00:09 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

        •  Yes, the NSA should spy on all suspects everywhere (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Calamity Jean

          Only when the US has total awareness of all suspected crimes in all nations will it be safe.

          Particularly cases where people host video uploading or fail to pay parking tickets.

      •  Unreasonable position. (0+ / 0-)

        That's why I can't take these anti-NSA rants seriously because it betrays an obvious lack of understanding of how governments operate, and a lack of concern for the well being of the country.

        "Because I am a river to my people."

        by lordcopper on Fri Aug 23, 2013 at 03:00:31 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Not for business purposes, they don't. nt (5+ / 0-)

      The influence of the [executive] has increased, is increasing, and ought to be diminished.

      by lysias on Fri Aug 23, 2013 at 02:48:53 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  why the quotes around "spy"? (6+ / 0-)

      In any case: The bestest part about those (like you) are so adamant in your support of Law And Order, is that the one place you just don't give a damn about Law And Order is the place where agencies of national governments violate the Laws And Order of other countries. 'Doesn't the NSA have the authority to "spy" on any non-US citizen'? No they don't, because the US government has no standing from which to grant such authorization.

      The NSA is, by its definition and its mission, a criminal enterprise. It mystifies me that people sagely nod, and mutter, "well, every government does it," and then carry on. "Everybody else does it" is generally not considered a get-out-of-ethical-constraints-free card, when applied to individuals expected to do things like, oh, I don't know, pay for information they could trivially obtain without real marginal cost to the information's original creator; yet somehow it excuses every malfeasant operation of intelligence agencies.

      Go figure.

      To put the torture behind us is, inevitably, to put it in front of us.

      by UntimelyRippd on Fri Aug 23, 2013 at 03:30:38 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

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