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View Diary: Allow This Brit to Remind Some of You What Matters to Americans (205 comments)

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  •  They're Not. nt (5+ / 0-)

    We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy.... --ML King "Beyond Vietnam"

    by Gooserock on Sun Aug 25, 2013 at 09:52:38 PM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  and that (5+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      blueoasis, twigg, Just Bob, worldlotus, Kombema

      is our job. as is convincing more democrats that it is their job.

      The cold passion for truth hunts in no pack. -Robinson Jeffers

      by Laurence Lewis on Sun Aug 25, 2013 at 09:56:01 PM PDT

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      •  Just a minute folks (15+ / 0-)
        Rights aren't "privilege" -- rights are rights.
        And to declare them to be privilege is one of the gravest and darkest moments in the history of the democratic party. To cede power to the state to override individual rights as if it is a matter of racial politics is anti-democratic, and serves no one.  The argument is a fraud upon everyone, particularly the ones some here are feigning to serve.

        The reason civil rights are set forth in the bill of rights, is so that majority opinion can't decide they aren't important. Some things are so crucial and basic that they must be protected and are not a matter of lower priority, because without rights we have nothing.

        Which is why it is so important to stand up for the 4th amendment, the rights to privacy, as well as freedom of assembly, freedom of speech.

        And this is why we must remain vigilant to protect them.

        To dismiss rights as privilege will destroy what is left of our democracy.

        And the people I talk to on the street don't agree that the surveillance isn't a concern. Working class people now distrust government more than ever.

        Anyone who suggests our rights are not a priority is working directly against the interests of the people.

        "In times of universal deceit, telling the truth will be a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

        by ZhenRen on Mon Aug 26, 2013 at 01:32:29 AM PDT

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        •  ZhenRen ... (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          claude, Remembering Jello

          You can't eat rights.

          I understand the point you are making. It matters, okay?

          But I am talking about getting elected, and while it still matters, it matters less.

          I hope that the quality of debate will improve,
          but I fear we will remain Democrats.

          Who is twigg?

          by twigg on Mon Aug 26, 2013 at 05:38:58 AM PDT

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          •  short version: (9+ / 0-)
            It's the economy, stupid
            h/t to WJC

            don't always believe what you think

            by claude on Mon Aug 26, 2013 at 06:18:58 AM PDT

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          •  The problem isn't getting them elected (5+ / 0-)

            The problem is who they sold their soul to in order to get elected and what those people expect in return.  

            And even the ones who lose talk about jobs.  Romney must have said jobs 10 zillion times.  Job creators.  They know how to destroy perfectly good words.

             

            •  I agree. (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Sylv, Onomastic

              That is a structural issue .. a political issue ... not an election driver.

              Personally the one thing I would have liked the President to spend rather more time on, is Campaign Finance Reform.

              The trouble is that all sides are so heavily invested in the current system, that it will take a veto-proof majority to fix it ... and they have to want to.

              It is the single problem that so hampers good work on many other issues.

              I hope that the quality of debate will improve,
              but I fear we will remain Democrats.

              Who is twigg?

              by twigg on Mon Aug 26, 2013 at 06:48:00 AM PDT

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          •  The problem with that is that if things (5+ / 0-)

            like climate change, and civil rights, and human rights, and legal accountability for torture aren't addressed during the election then the winners can just say that they don't have a mandate on those issues and therefore they will not do anything about them.

                               Standing for justice and accountability,
                                             For Dan,
                                             Heather

            Torture is ALWAYS wrong, no matter who is inflicting it on whom.

            by Chacounne on Mon Aug 26, 2013 at 07:31:00 AM PDT

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            •  They say what they like anyway (0+ / 0-)

              once they are elected.

              John Boehner and his crowd were elected in the House on a promise of jobs.

              How many jobs bills have they produced.

              Picking the candidates who have the right qualities is a primary process.

              I hope that the quality of debate will improve,
              but I fear we will remain Democrats.

              Who is twigg?

              by twigg on Mon Aug 26, 2013 at 08:24:22 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  So let me get this straight : (5+ / 0-)

                1) We weren't allowed to talk about legal accountability for torture in 2009, when the President was newly in office, because he had so much else on his plate and we needed to give him time.

                2) We weren't allowed to talk about legal accountability for torture during the 2010 election season, because there were important things to talk about and it would possibly end up getting Republicans elected.

                3) We weren't allowed to talk about legal accountability for torture during 2011 and 2012, because we might get Mitt Romney elected.

                4) You are now saying we cannot talk about legal accountability for torture during the 2014 election season because it might end up getting Republicans elected.

                WHEN exactly ARE we allowed to address this VERY important issue ?

                        Standing for justice and accountability,
                                           For Dan,
                                           Heather

                Torture is ALWAYS wrong, no matter who is inflicting it on whom.

                by Chacounne on Mon Aug 26, 2013 at 09:08:04 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Nope. (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Sylv

                  Not what I am saying at all.

                  We did talk about it, and we should continue to do so.

                  Pointing out what the priorities are to the electorate is just a reminder. It is not a prescription.

                  I hope that the quality of debate will improve,
                  but I fear we will remain Democrats.

                  Who is twigg?

                  by twigg on Mon Aug 26, 2013 at 09:12:10 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Actually, no, following the 2008 election, (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    ZhenRen

                    we haven't talked about it, or pushed for it to happen, nearly enough, and yes, those of us who care about the issue have been told not to talk about it repeatedly because of different election cycles. I had hoped that this would not continue, but this is how it starts, being told that the public doesn't care about it. Then, as the election gets closer we will again be told that it's too important to elect Democrats to push on this issue and risk the election.

                               Standing for justice and accountability,
                                                For Dan,
                                                Heather

                    Torture is ALWAYS wrong, no matter who is inflicting it on whom.

                    by Chacounne on Mon Aug 26, 2013 at 10:14:11 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

          •  Strawman (4+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            artisan, Chacounne, Ray Pensador, cslewis

            Of course you can't eat rights. This isn't an either/or situation. That is the strawman assumption. The false choice foisted on the discussion.

            Elections, voting, free speech to protest elected officials, the right to assembly to protest such officials, the right to organize without being surveilled, all are part of that.

            Thus, the message of OWS: The issue of jobs, education, health care was central to the theme of protesting the hegemony of Wall Street, which controls all of these issues.

            But unfortunately, the electoral process is broken, and pretty much run by Wall Street these days, which is why OWS sprung up all across the nation, even the world, overnight.

            And now people are acting as if these issues were ignored in favor of rights? All of these issues are interrelated. One doesn't come without the other. You can't fight for jobs without the right to wage that fight.

            "In times of universal deceit, telling the truth will be a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

            by ZhenRen on Mon Aug 26, 2013 at 10:09:38 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  Most excellently stated. (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          greenbell, ZhenRen, cslewis

          The whole "white privilege" meme is just a loophole to get around the ban on calling Obama's critics here racists.

          To attempt to apply that meme to those who are justifiably outraged by the NSA revelations is the lowest form of sophistry. And it's utterly devoid of any intellectual basis.

          As has been pointed out repeatedly lately, one of the earliest and most significant victims of the surveillance state was the civil rights movement, including Martin Luther king. It is simply absurd to defend these criminals by by invoking racism in light of this history. Absurd and disgusting.

          •  I'd trade a lifetime of surveillance for (7+ / 0-)

            a guarantee that my daughter will never have to decide between her medication and her rent.

            If you honestly think that "privacy" is the end-all and be-all, I've gotta assume that that's not the kind of thing that keeps you up at night, Me, me it does. I'm not in a position to leave her independently wealthy when I die.

            You can call me whatever names you like. I know that that would be the right choice.

            •  Someone who understands prioriies :) (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Satya1

              I hope that the quality of debate will improve,
              but I fear we will remain Democrats.

              Who is twigg?

              by twigg on Mon Aug 26, 2013 at 08:25:10 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Absurd use of false choice (4+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                ZhenRen, artisan, cslewis, northsylvania

                But let's run with it for a moment...

                We already have a historical record of illegal surveillance being used against innocent Americans. Who were those innocent Americans? Tea Baggers? The health insurance lobby? Banksters? The people trying to enact policies that will very much lead to young women having to choose between medicine or rent?

                Of course not. Illegal surveillance is a weapon used by the enemies of living wages, affordable health care, and affordable housing - not to mention every other important progressive issue you and Remembering Jello claim to care so much about.

                Right here, at Daily kos, we had a huge expose and discussion about Palantir (with HBGary), working on behalf of Bank of America and the Chamber of Commerce, plotting to use covert and illegal tactics to damage progressives and labor unions.

                Palantir is also one of the NSA's surveillance clients, generating billions of $ in contrqacts with software that, if it's not PRISM, is pretty much identical to it. Oh, and their version also happens to be called "Prism".

                What kind of tiny, circle jerk of a bubble must you folk live in to not know about this?

                You really think there's a world where common people have access to affordable healthcare and other "socialist"  programs AND a secret surveillance state that is indistinguishable from Wall Street wages secret war on progressives and labor and populist Democrats?

                History has shown over and over again that the real purpose of the surveillance state is to subdue Leftists with their dangerous talk about economic fairness, environmental sustainability, empowering black people, and generally infringing on the 1%'s privilege of making perverse profits at everyone else's expense.

                This is the historical record, not just here, but throughout the world. So this comment by Remembering Jello was equivalent to saying, "I would trade a lifetime of being trapped in a cage with hungry alligators as long as I don't have to worry about being eaten by wild animals."

                But lastly, this isn't a choice we have to make. And frankly, it's sheer scumbaggery to keep insinuating, if not stating it outright, that those of us who are adamantly opposed to allowing our 4th Amendment rights to be withered away are somehow impervious to all other issues.

                My priorities are simple. I want every single American to be able to live a decent happy life, and raise happy secure children, free from civil and economic oppression, in a clean and sustainable environment.

                That's what I fucking live for. And it really doesn't take too much intelligence to realize that that goal is not possible without an open, democratic government, that answers to its people, and not the other way around.

            •  They've got you right where they want you. (5+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              ZhenRen, artisan, cslewis, twigg, northsylvania

              They're holding your child's future for ransom.

              Nice government we have going here.

              BTW, you'll never get the security you want for your daughter, as in, the kidnappers will never give up what they've got on you.

              We either figure out a way to swap out all the criminals in our government, or they'll just figure out more ways to extort from us what they want; all of our financial security.

              They want us and future generations to be little more than indentured slaves living in fear of their retribution. And they are damned close to being there.


              "We must make our choice. We may have democracy, or we may have wealth concentrated in the hands of a few, but we can't have both." - Louis Brandies

              by Pescadero Bill on Mon Aug 26, 2013 at 08:32:12 AM PDT

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            •  I am worried about your daughter, (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              ZhenRen, Sylv, northsylvania

              and all those like her, getting the medication and health care they need; I am also worried about her use of that medication being held against her, to deny her jobs or housing, or whatever, if it is discovered through that surveillance.

                               Just my two cents,
                                    Heather

              Torture is ALWAYS wrong, no matter who is inflicting it on whom.

              by Chacounne on Mon Aug 26, 2013 at 10:31:27 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  Without the 4th amendment (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              cslewis

              The State, serving Wall Streets interests, will provide health care, but it will cost us dearly (as is evident -- I don't even have health care, and I can't afford it).

              And when you try to publicly assemble to protest that, you will be surveilled. You will be infiltrated. You will possibly be beaten and jailed.

              And about that strawman: No one said freedom and rights were more important than health care, but if you're suggesting we should give up rights, then you are opposing everything democracy is based upon.

              I think health care is a right. I think having a living wage is a right. As well as housing.

              These rights, together, could be called the right to live. Separating these issues into special interests is an act of dividing the public into factions who battle each other, which plays into the hands of the 1%.

              You arguing on their behalf, and you seem not to realize that.

              "In times of universal deceit, telling the truth will be a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

              by ZhenRen on Mon Aug 26, 2013 at 10:38:37 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  fine, trade all you want (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              ZhenRen

              for yourself and your family; sure, but you don't get to trade away my rights to be free from unwarranted surveillance.

              EVER.

              and,  "if you force a binary decision, I know which way I'll go."

              “Vote for the party closest to you, but work for the movement you love.” ~ Thom Hartmann 6/12/13

              by ozsea1 on Mon Aug 26, 2013 at 12:06:38 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

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