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View Diary: We Just Have To Bomb The Sh*t Out Of Something (265 comments)

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  •  Meh. That's a pretty weak conspiracy theory. (11+ / 0-)

    I'm not buying the justification for this strike one bit, but I highly doubt that it's orchestrated to distract from the Snowden revelations.

    •  We know that stated reason for strike is dubious (18+ / 0-)

      on its face.  We know that there's no public debate about the likely consequences of bombing, about what will be done after missiles fly, or about other potential options.  We know that there's no public debate as to why there's a pressing need for the US to intervene in a 2 year old civil war.

      When one knows that one is being deceived by people who have deceived one in the past, one has to examine motives other than the publicly stated ones.

      Some men see things as they are and ask why. I dream of things that never were and ask why not?

      by RFK Lives on Tue Aug 27, 2013 at 08:03:05 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Occam's Razor: It's US dick swinging. (26+ / 0-)

        The Leader of the Free World® can't be going around having that leadership questioned. Draw a military line in the sand, and your presidency is down the toilet if you don't make it stick---the chickenhawk horde will make sure of that.

        Democratic presidents seem to do it to not look weak. GOPer presidents seem to do it because they're generally blood-thirsty.

        It's a box of our own making. A box, by the way, which is completely unconstitutional; it's not up to the president to make war for the very reason that they're likely to be pulled into conflicts like monarchs throughout history. But, war powers belonging to the people through the Congress is so 'old school' ...

        •  Do you have some evidence for this? What would (0+ / 0-)

          you do in response to gas attacks on civilians?

          •  Are the American civilians? (12+ / 0-)

            If not, it's not my problem.  Let the UN do something.

          •  hooper, do you have any evidence (5+ / 0-)

            relating to who did the gas attacks. It is probably likely that it was done by someone who hoped to profit from this terrorism.

            It seems to me that the rebels or their supporters would be the biggest beneficiary of such attacks. But, it would be nice if we remembered all lies and spin that led to prior wars before we approved the killings of thousands of children by yet even more violent acts.

            What I would suggest is having a vote in Syria. But it seems that no rebel dares to oppose Assad at the polls.

            War is costly. Peace is priceless!

            by frostbite on Tue Aug 27, 2013 at 01:01:41 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  I'd go to the UN with my evidence. (8+ / 0-)

            1) Bomb Syria 2)???????????? 3) Lives saved!!!!!!

            by JesseCW on Tue Aug 27, 2013 at 01:44:46 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  i dunno, we didn't do much about the genocide (5+ / 0-)

            in the Sudan.

            so you were saying?

            "The further a society drifts from truth, the more it will hate those that speak it." ~George Orwell "When it is dark enough, you can see the stars." ~Charles Beard

            by poligirl on Tue Aug 27, 2013 at 01:57:05 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  You don't throw random bombs at random targets (7+ / 0-)

            based on random bits of "intelligence" coming from liars with agendas of their on on both sides of the ocean, that's for sure.

            Anyway, the American Department of Defense should be used to, ummmmm, defend the United States of America. Retaliations, feel-good quasi-humanitarian efforts, and blatant saber-rattling and warmongering where our country is not under attack are completely, totally unacceptable. It is not our country's place to make Obama feel like a tough guy or make the CEO of Raytheon even richer.

            "Bernie Madoff's mistake was stealing from the rich. If he'd stolen from the poor he'd have a cabinet position." -OPOL

            by blue in NC on Tue Aug 27, 2013 at 02:20:15 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  Are the people who buried the dead... (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            poligirl, gooderservice

            ... wearing hazmat suits?

            If the chemicals are so deadly, that means the bodies of the dead are contaminated and should never be approached by anyone who is not decked out in a full hazmat suit, head to toe, including the huge helmet that keeps the cleaners and grave diggers from breathing the air where the dead were allegedly poisoned.

            No hazmat suits = most likely no poison gas (so death came from some other means).

            WHO sold the chemical weapons to these people and WHY???

            Cui bono???

            [Oh, and my response would be to let the UN handle it.  It's none of our fucking business.  We have people here in our own country who need help, infrastructures to maintain or build that have gone untended for over a decade, people to employ to keep us from completely turning into a third world country which we are rapidly becoming because we're spending money on illegal and unconstitutional wars, not on our people or our country.]

            I'm sick of attempts to steer this nation from principles evolved in The Age of Reason to hallucinations derived from illiterate herdsmen. ~ Crashing Vor

            by NonnyO on Tue Aug 27, 2013 at 03:33:15 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  We know that 91% of the American public opposes (22+ / 0-)

        our involvement in the Syrian civil war, and the American government doesn't seem to care at all.

        Personally, I think it's only fair that we fix the last couple of Muslim countries we broke, before we break another one.

        When you triangulate everything, you can't even roll downhill...

        by PhilJD on Tue Aug 27, 2013 at 08:45:16 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  made up statistic (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          imchange
          •  Are you aware of the recent Reuters/Ipsos poll? (13+ / 0-)

            Yes, I phrased the poll results in the strongest possible way for effect, but the same poll found that only 25% of Americans would support our intervention in Syria, even if it's proven that the Assad regime used chemical weapons against the rebels.

            When you triangulate everything, you can't even roll downhill...

            by PhilJD on Tue Aug 27, 2013 at 09:32:56 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  but the poll with Mr. Boeing, Mr. Northrop-Grumman (9+ / 0-)

              Mr. Lockheed Martin, Mr. General Dynamics and the rest of the 'persons' on this list are in full support of the latest war.
              http://www.usatoday.com/...

              10. United Technologies (UTX) -- aircraft, electronics, engines
              Arm sales: $11.6 billion, total sales: $58.2 billion
              Gross profit: $5.3 billion, total workforce: 199,900

              United Technologies makes a wide range of arms — notably military helicopters, including the Black Hawk helicopter for the U.S. Army and the Seahawk helicopter for the U.S. Navy. The company was the biggest employer in the top 10 though arms sales accounted for just 20% of revenue. UTX also produces elevators, escalators, air-conditioners and refrigerators. International sales comprised 60% of the company's revenue in 2012.

              9. L-3 Communications (LLL) -- electronics
              Arm sales: $12.5 billion, total sales: $15.2 billion
              Gross profit: $956 million, total workforce: 61,000

              Some 83% of L-3 Communications sales in 2011 came from arms sales, but this was down from what it sold the prior year. The company has four business segments: electronic systems; aircraft modernization and maintenance; national security solutions; and command, control, communications, intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance. Among many products manufactured, the company has become a major provider of unmanned aircraft systems.

              8. Finmeccanica -- aircraft, artillery, engines, electronics, vehicles and missiles
              Arms sales, $14.6 billion, total sales: $24.1 billion
              Gross profit: $ -3.2 billion, total workforce: 70,470

              Italian company Finmeccanica makes a wide range of arms, including helicopters and security electronics. Nearly 60% of the company's sales in 2011 were in arms. Finmeccanica lost $3.2 billion in 2011. The Italian company is currently fending off allegation that it paid bribes to win an approximately $750 million contract to provide 12 military helicopters to the Indian government in 2010. The then-head of the company, Giuseppe Orsi, was arrested in February but has denied wrongdoing. Other executives, including the head of the company's helicopter unit, have been replaced, and the company has delayed the release of recent financial results.

              7. EADS -- aircraft, electronics, missiles and space
              Arm sales: $16.4 billion, total sales: $68.3 billion
              Gross profit: $1.4 billion, total workforce: 133,120

              The European Aeronautic Defense and Space Company (EADS), based in the Netherlands, had sales in 2011 roughly in line with the prior year. Arms sales comprised just 24% of the company's revenue. EADS and BAE Systems unsuccessfully attempted to merge for $45 billion in 2012, which would have created the world's largest aerospace company. The deal collapsed in October after German Chancellor Angela Merkel expressed concerns about the merger.

              6. Northrop Grumman (NOC) -- aircraft, electronics, missiles, ships, space
              Arm sales: $21.4 billion, total sales: $26.4 billion
              Gross profit: $2.1 billion, total workforce: 72,500

              Northrop Grumman's 2011 arms sales comprised about 81% of total sales even after a sharp decline in arms sales year over year. The company attributed the decline to reduced government spending on defense projects. Nevertheless, the company was more profitable than in the prior year.

              5. Raytheon (RTN) -- electronics, missiles
              Arm sales: $22.5 billion, total sales: $24.9 billion
              Gross profit: $1.9 billion, total workforce: 71,000

              Raytheon, based in Waltham, Mass., is one of the largest defense contractors in the U.S. The company makes the Tomahawk Cruise Missile, among others. Arms sales comprised about 90% of the company's sales in 2011 though they as a total they were lower than in the prior year. The slide hasn't let up. Total sales in 2012 fell 1.5%, and Raytheon is expecting sales to fall 3% in 2013, a projection which doesn't take into account the effects of mandated budget cuts. The company can rely on overseas customers to somewhat offset weak sales at home. As of January, approximately 40% of the company's backlog was booked overseas. The company expects approximately a 5% increase in international sales in 2013.

              4. General Dynamics (GD) -- artillery, electronics, vehicles, small arms, ships
              Arm sales: $23.8 billion, total sales: $32.7 billion
              Gross profit: $2.5 billion, total workforce: 95,100

              With 18,000 transactions in 2011, General Dynamics was the third-largest contractor to the U.S. government. Of those contracts, approximately $12.9 billion worth went to the Navy, while an additional $4.6 billion went to the Army. The company's arms sales in 2011 comprised 73% of total sales. Arms sales in 2011 were slightly below 2010 levels. The company makes a host of products, including electric boats, tracked and wheeled military vehicles, and battle tanks. The company announced layoffs in early March, blaming mandated federal budget cuts.

              3. BAE Systems -- aircraft, artillery, electronics, vehicles, missiles, ships
              Arm sales: $29.2 billion, total sales: $30.7 billion
              Gross profit: $2.3 billion, total workforce: 93,500

              BAE Systems was the largest non-U.S. company based on arms sales. Arms sales represented 95% of the company's total sales in 2011 even though they were lower as a total of overall sales compared to the prior year. The products BAE sells include the L-ROD Bar Armor System that shields defense vehicles and the Hawk Advanced Jet Trainer that provides sophisticated simulation training for military pilots. In 2013, the company said its growth would likely come from outside the U.S. and Great Britain — its home market. BAE noted that its outlook for those two countries was "constrained," likely due to the diminished presence in international conflicts and government budget cuts.

              2. Boeing (BA) -- aircraft, electronics, missiles, space
              Arm sales: $31.8 billion, total sales: $68.7 billion
              Gross profit: $4 billion, total workforce: 171,700

              Boeing was the second-largest U.S. government contractor in 2011, with about $21.5 billion worth of goods contracted. The Chicago-based company makes a wide range of arms, including strategic missile systems, laser and electro-optical systems and global positioning systems. Despite all these technologies, just 46% of the company's total sales of $68.7 billion in 2011 came from arms. Boeing is the largest commercial airplane manufacturer in the world, making planes such as the 747, 757 and recently, the 787 Dreamliner. The company is also known for its space technology — Boeing had $1 billion worth of contracts with NASA in 2011.

              1. Lockheed Martin (LMT) -- aircraft, electronics, missiles, space
              Arm sales:$36.3 billion, total sales: $46.5 billion
              Gross profit: $2.7 billion, total workforce, 123,000

              Lockheed Martin notched $36.3 billion in sales in 2011, slightly higher than the $35.7 billion the company sold in 2010. The arms sales comprised 78% of the company's total 2011 sales. Lockheed makes a wide range of products, including aircraft, missiles, unmanned systems and radar systems. The company and its employees have been concerned about the effects of the "fiscal cliff" and sequestration, the latter of which includes significant cuts to the U.S. Department of Defense. In the fall of 2012, the company planned on issuing layoff notices to all employees before backing down at the White House's request.

              without the ants the rainforest dies

              by aliasalias on Tue Aug 27, 2013 at 01:00:48 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  Well if 25% would support intervention (0+ / 0-)

              then clearly 91% do not oppose it.

              And when people start claiming "undecideds" are secretly suporting their side, then you know you are dealing with some who doesn't mind playing fast and loose with facts.

            •  Don't bother trying to present facts to an (1+ / 1-)
              Recommended by:
              NonnyO
              Hidden by:
              Mindful Nature

              unapologetic warmonger.

              "Bernie Madoff's mistake was stealing from the rich. If he'd stolen from the poor he'd have a cabinet position." -OPOL

              by blue in NC on Tue Aug 27, 2013 at 02:22:08 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

      •  Well, we don't (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        LABobsterofAnaheim

        outside the halls of the DailyKos CT committee, I think most folks are agreed that sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.  There seems to be no evidence except eleventy dimensional chess arguments to suggest that this is anything other than a substantial chemical weapons attack.  Somehow that gets turned into "dubious" reasons.  I think mostly it is just that folks don't much like the implications of this awkward fact (and it is awkward and I'm sure everyone wishes Assad has stuck to massacring his people using traditional methods), so we have to invent CT to make it go away.

        As for actual evidence it was anyone else, well, there's none.

        •  In Middle East politics, a cigar is rarely a cigar (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          poligirl, JesseCW
        •  I see. When you've got two groups of brutal (7+ / 0-)

          assholes committing horrific massacres and torturing people, the one you like least is by default guilty of any use of chemical weapons.

          Well, that's unassailable reasoning.

          1) Bomb Syria 2)???????????? 3) Lives saved!!!!!!

          by JesseCW on Tue Aug 27, 2013 at 01:46:59 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Like your new sig. (6+ / 0-)

            When you triangulate everything, you can't even roll downhill...

            by PhilJD on Tue Aug 27, 2013 at 01:55:21 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  Uh, no (0+ / 0-)

            they're the only ones for which there is ANY evidence that they have chemical weapons, the notion that Assad would use them has been a persistent concern, in light of events such as Hama, and the events surrounding this attack point in one direction only.  (I've posted now maybe 20 comments asking for ANY evidence that opposition groups also havve them.  Not a SINGLE link to anything has been provided.  Not one.  What does that tell you?).

            So, not default.  THe only one for which there is evidence.  Provide evidence.  "I don't trust Obama" isn't evidence.

        •  You do not know nor have you any proof whatsoever (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          poligirl, JesseCW, blue in NC, JVolvo

          this was Assad.   Proof and a target is usually a good plan before you start bombing.

          "Unthinking respect for authority is the greatest enemy of truth". Albert Einstein

          by Sydserious on Tue Aug 27, 2013 at 01:59:03 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  And it's always very helpful, of course, to rain (4+ / 0-)

          even more death and destruction on the victims of said alleged chemical attacks.

          The multitudes of children who are killed by US bombs will be sure to thank the US for saving them from chemicals. Posthumously, of course.

          "Bernie Madoff's mistake was stealing from the rich. If he'd stolen from the poor he'd have a cabinet position." -OPOL

          by blue in NC on Tue Aug 27, 2013 at 02:26:06 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  LEt's see (0+ / 0-)

            attacking military targets would be pretty much NOT do that.  Of course, this fact is pretty much immaterial to your world view.

            Amazing there are so many Assad fans here

            •  Amazing there are so many warmongers here. (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Sydserious

              Shall I HR you the way you HR'd me?

              Grow the fuck up.

              "Bernie Madoff's mistake was stealing from the rich. If he'd stolen from the poor he'd have a cabinet position." -OPOL

              by blue in NC on Tue Aug 27, 2013 at 02:44:07 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  I'm sorry (0+ / 0-)

                did I call you an insulting name?  THat's HRable, straight up.

                Grow the fuck up indeed.  You know, I've lived in the middle east, and I don't think that everything is a secret plot.  Frankly, if you had any concept of waht the Assad regime was like, you wouldn't be so eager to defend them and their war crimes.

                •  Searching comments by blue in NC for any example (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Lost and Found, JVolvo

                  ever of defending Assad regime and their war crimes...searching...searching...searching...searching...searching...searching...

                  Search complete. No results to display.

                  Care to try a different insult?

                  "Bernie Madoff's mistake was stealing from the rich. If he'd stolen from the poor he'd have a cabinet position." -OPOL

                  by blue in NC on Tue Aug 27, 2013 at 03:14:38 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Hardly (0+ / 0-)

                    you've been peddling the "but it was the opposition, honest!" line all day.  THat's pretty much ripped right from the SANA headlines.

                    So, yes, if you take positions that effectively defend the regime, then one can reasonably conclude you are defending the regime.

                    •  Searching comments by blue in NC for any example (0+ / 0-)

                      ever of saying "but it was the opposition, honest!"...searching...searching...searching...searching...searching...searching...

                      Search complete. No results to display.

                      Gosh, you're so good at being wrong you'd give Dick Morris a run for his money!

                      Care to try a different insult?

                      "Bernie Madoff's mistake was stealing from the rich. If he'd stolen from the poor he'd have a cabinet position." -OPOL

                      by blue in NC on Tue Aug 27, 2013 at 03:31:42 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                  •  Weird, doc2 was pulling that same "defending (or (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    blue in NC

                    propping up) Assad" bullshit in another post.  WTF is it with the warmongers here?

                    Military action for show - especially in the Middle East - with fuzzy intel, hazy goals and no post-bombing plan is bull. fucking. shit.

                    Haven't we learned anything?

                    The GOP says you have to have an ID to vote, but $ Millionaire donors should remain anonymous?

                    by JVolvo on Wed Aug 28, 2013 at 12:40:52 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  It really makes me wonder how warpoed somebody's (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      JVolvo

                      mind has to be to make them equate opposition to the initiation of yet another American war and foreign-policy disaster with supporting dictators like Assad.

                      I guess there are some people who are so in love with the idea of continuous US involvement in faraway wars that they've lost all contact with reality.

                      And it's worked out so well in Afghanistan and Iraq, hasn't it?

                      "Bernie Madoff's mistake was stealing from the rich. If he'd stolen from the poor he'd have a cabinet position." -OPOL

                      by blue in NC on Wed Aug 28, 2013 at 03:43:32 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

    •  I don't buy the conspiracy angle (10+ / 0-)

      but I  can see  a MAJOR subconscious incentive to embrace military action in Syria as a solution to all the admin's PR problems.

      The trouble is that the consequences of air strikes are grave and are likely to be Obama's undoing. He going to hand the GOP a HUGE stick to beat him and the Dems with in 2014 (not that Romney would have done anything different).

      Our society is addicted to war. By focusing on "solving" other people problems (mostly by killing them and declaring "problem solved) we don't have to solve our own problems.

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