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  •  Asking a question isn't "putting words in your (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    buddabelly

    mouth", particularly with your own words make the question unavoidable:

    and every one of them is antisemtic inherently
    because the function of the NT is to discredit the Jewish faith while claiming to fulfill it in a way that is grossly offensive to the tenets of Judaism.  (emphasis added)
    This exact same claim is made against Islam by Islamaphobic bigots. Islam proclaims itself to be the fulfillment of the Abraham's mission as much as Christianity does. Your logic would condemn Islam as anti-Semitic just as it does Christianity.

    I don't think I'm the one being blinded by an "agenda".

    Nothing human is alien to me.

    by WB Reeves on Wed Aug 28, 2013 at 03:29:26 PM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  but that is not the claim made by Islam (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      WB Reeves

      Mohammad can be a prophet to non- Jews. We aren't bothered by that, we aren't pressured to change, to convert or told our beliefs are wrong by Muslims - when we are by a lot of Christians.

      Christians, on the other hand, base their authority on Judaism, give false genealogies for their prophet/Deity and condemn us to hell for continuing to exist - while insisting G-d lied to the Jewish people until their version of G-d came along and put on a people suit.

      So they aren't the same at ALL, particularly in their impact and interaction with the Jewish people.

      •  Well that's a lot more nuanced and therefore (0+ / 0-)

        more compelling. But just as all Christians do not consider Jews to be "Christ killers" or condemned to hell, neither do all followers of Islam live up to Mohammed's injunctions for tolerance. Sadly, as in Christianity, there are those use their faith as a pretext for anti-Semitism.

        Moreover, when all is said and done, Islam, even as Christianity, views Judaism as a flawed and false interpretation of God's message. This is why both religions are describe as being equally "people of the book." That Christianity has historically been a far worse perpetrator of anti-Semitic crimes simply demonstrates that this theological point isn't necessarily the root cause of such atrocities.

        It's one thing to convict Christianity based on it's historical record. It's an entirely different thing to make a deterministic claim based on a scriptural interpretation. Anti-Semites have historically employed the latter method to argue that Judaism itself was a genocidal belief system. That's one reason why I view such arguments with suspicion.

        If you wonder how they managed this, consider what the Torah says about the career of Joshua, or the reason given for God turning his face from King Saul.    

        Nothing human is alien to me.

        by WB Reeves on Wed Aug 28, 2013 at 04:46:02 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  how their fringe may view it is not my problem (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          AaronInSanDiego

          as Judaism exists without their permission or approval.  

          Christianity requires Judaism to stand on, Islam does not.  Christianity further stands on its head the basic tenets of Judaism -

          1. G-d is noncorporeal

          2. G-d did not lie to Abraham

          3. You are responsible for your own sins and teshuvah

          Islam is much closer to Judaism and does not require Judaism to be wrong in order for Islam to be right.  Mohammed is their prophet, not ours.

          •  I guess we'll have agree to disagree then` (0+ / 0-)

            since my experience differs. I don't see the Koran making any more sense than the NT without the underpinning of the Torah.

            I do have to ask how thoroughly you have explored these questions with followers of Islam though.

            Nothing human is alien to me.

            by WB Reeves on Wed Aug 28, 2013 at 06:07:34 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  why should I? as I stated before (0+ / 0-)

              Muslims aren't trying to convert me, accusing me of killing G-d or telling me I'm going to hell - my three biggest pet peeves with certain kinds of Christians.

              I don't need their book to make sense to me, it's not my book.  So they can believe whatever they like as long as they don't do any of the above as far as I'm concerned.

              •  In other words you aren't talking about what (0+ / 0-)

                believers in Islam say they believe but what you think they believe? Sorry but that's not authoritative. That's like Christians pontificating on the meaning of the Torah without any reference to what Jews say it means.

                You seem to be ignoring the fact that both Christianity and Islam claim to be direct revelations from God that clarify and reorder humanity's relation to the divine. If you think that followers of Islam care anymore than Christians about what Judaism has to say about the legitimacy of their faith, you are mistaken.

                I get the impression that you are a believer which is fine and dandy except that you fail to appreciate that followers of Christianity and Islam believe the precepts of their faiths trump your own. Consequently, the authority that you cite means nothing to them. Needless to say, the same holds true for nonbelievers of any stripe.

                As I said, we'll just have to agree to disagree.

                Nothing human is alien to me.

                by WB Reeves on Thu Aug 29, 2013 at 02:32:09 PM PDT

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                •  no, I don't CARE what they believe. (0+ / 0-)

                  It has no effect on me or impact on my life.

                  And Christians actually pontificate on the meaning of Torah all the time without any reference at all to what Jews say it means - that's pretty much the basis of Christianity.

                  Christians and their need to pontificate, smugly appropriate and convert at Jews is the issue to me.  What they believe is of zero importance, I don't want them up in my face about it.  I don't want to hear it, have to play nice about it or constantly battle to not be harassed that they have the truth when they can't read.

                  What I "believe" is better defined with mathematics than my cultures oral history - belief is not required or necessary in Judaism - action is.  I'm not asserting any authority, I just want them to STFU and leave me and mine alone.

                  •  This is precisely the point (0+ / 0-)
                    And Christians actually pontificate on the meaning of Torah all the time without any reference at all to what Jews say it means - that's pretty much the basis of Christianity.
                    I wouldn't expect that you'd want to imitate such behavior.

                    I can't argue with the rest of your post. Personally, I think anyone who can't read the original Hebrew has no business issuing opinions on the meaning of the Torah. To do so is the epitome of ignorance wedded to arrogance.

                    Nothing human is alien to me.

                    by WB Reeves on Thu Aug 29, 2013 at 04:48:06 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  You seem to keep trying to make what others (0+ / 0-)

                      believe somehow matter - I don't understand that.

                      They can believe they go to the great pasta salad in the sky, it doesn't make a difference to me or have any impact on how I live my life as a Jew.  

                      It's what they do that is rude and off putting - trying to convert me or tell me "what the Torah really means is..." - and that is something Muslims do NOT do.  So they're even less of an issue.

                      •  What other's believe matters when you're (0+ / 0-)

                        ostensibly describing/critiquing they're beliefs.

                        What you actually believe as a Jew trumps whatever notions someone may have of your supposed beliefs. The reverse is equally true.

                        Vis a vis your point about Muslims, while this may be your personal experience, it's certainly not universal. Islam is very much a proselytizing faith.

                        Nothing human is alien to me.

                        by WB Reeves on Thu Aug 29, 2013 at 05:20:27 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  maybe to other people it is (1+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          WB Reeves

                          but they tend not to try and convert Jews as a general rule - and certainly in comparison to Christians they try a lot less.  I live in the deep south - I have Christians all up my ass trying to save me from Torah.  I've known and know plenty of Muslims - and they ask me if I noticed that there's a new brand of NomNoms that are both kosher AND halal.  

                          It's a completely different relationship.

                          And that's all I really care about - keep your beliefs over by you and don't bother me with them - and I'll do the same.

                          •  Being from the deep South myself (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Mortifyd

                            I understand exactly what you mean and can't disagree. I had the good fortune to grow up in a city in a predominately Jewish neighborhood. Consequently I was insulated from a lot of crap attitudes.

                            Nonetheless, I have relatives who are just as obnoxious as you describe.

                            Nothing human is alien to me.

                            by WB Reeves on Thu Aug 29, 2013 at 07:56:11 PM PDT

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            •  I think this is one of those places where the idea (0+ / 0-)

              of "Judeo-Christian" bursts into flame and shocks the hell out of the "Christian" side of that nonexistent concept and Jews just nod and look knowingly at each other.

              Christians assume a certain closeness with Judaism that we as Jews don't actually often agree with at all.  We don't feel closer to Christianity as a whole than Islam, Christians simply believe we should based on their own theology and world view as the "winners" and "right" faith.  

              Theologically speaking Islam is much closer to Judaism, there have been historically speaking much better relations between the two and I/P is not religious so much as political - another thing many Christians cannot grasp.  Judaism is not a western religious concept, it's a middle eastern one, as is Islam.  

              While Christianity may have vaguely started in the middle east - one could certainly argue that Greek texts as the primary source of the NT would make it European - it is a western tradition far from its roots and in conflict both philosophically and physically in pretty much every way possible with its "source".

              So Christians are always shocked when they see that their assumptions of close ties are not actually held by many Jews at all.

              •  Well here I pretty much agree with everything (0+ / 0-)

                you've said with the exception of equating the Greece of late antiquity with Europe. While that has had some popularity, it's a view of relatively recent construction. It certainly can't be dated any earlier than the emergence of the concept of Europe as a cultural whole.

                Nothing human is alien to me.

                by WB Reeves on Thu Aug 29, 2013 at 02:42:10 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Greece is not considered middle east (0+ / 0-)

                  Med yes, but the basis of European classics and a whole lot of cultural influence came from Greece via Rome - which is also Med but not really middle east.  

                  Roman Catholic Christianity is also very different from Greek and Antiochian Christianity as well - so what Europe got was NOT the faith of the desert.

                  It's a whole different ball game in the sand.

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