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View Diary: POTUS to Close Gun Sale Loophole...Executive-Style (146 comments)

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  •  Two questions that I've not been able to (6+ / 0-)

    find answers to.

    Is the CMP one of those entities able to import said firearms?

    Was the trust/background check thing meant to specifically to NFA related items?

    •  Not sure. What's the CMP? (5+ / 0-)

      And what is NFA?

      I ♥ President Barack Obama.

      by ericlewis0 on Thu Aug 29, 2013 at 09:25:07 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  asdf (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        ericlewis0, rodentrancher, JesseCW

        CMP

        NFA items are machine guns, silencers/suppressors, short barrel shotgun/rifles and other items. Out of the times I've heard 'trusts' related to firearms, it's in dealing with these items.

        •  checking around on the CMP angle (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          KVoimakas, JesseCW

          According to some other sources, the impact on the CMP might be minimal as the CMP should be considered an official government organization and exempt.  Until additional information is released, it is probably a guessing game.

          The sequester is the new Republican immigration reform plan. Make things so bad here in the US that no one will want to live here.

          by Mote Dai on Thu Aug 29, 2013 at 04:18:03 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  ABC, 1 2 3, fewer guns for you & me! (12+ / 0-)

        My translation of the above question to you. In truth, it's RKBA mumbo-jumbo to make those of us who don't spend 24/7 immersed in gun culture seem stoopid.

        Great news, ericlewis0.  Thanks for the diary, and thanks to our POTUS for getting this done. One day--some day--we'll turn the tide against America's insane gun mania.

        Ho'oponopono. To make things right; restore harmony; heal.

        by earicicle on Thu Aug 29, 2013 at 09:33:15 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  National Firearms Act, IIRC (6+ / 0-)

        the one from, oh, Hoover's early days, maybe.

        It made the classic Tommy-gun in a violin case illegal. Set back Prohibition-era gangsters not a whit, actually, but gave handles to the cops to get after 'em for weapons violations.

        Also imposed additional requirements on dealers / owners including the tax stamp and license for firearms that actually can produce more than one round downrange per trigger pull on purpose.

        I note with concern that several well-reputed modern firearms makers lately have recalls out -- for flaws reported almost a decade ago in at least one case -- for their products which are liable to a particularly nasty failure that allows a round downrange with NO trigger pull. My thanks to DrillSgtK for bringing those recall notices here.

        We, as in the folks who are not afraid of or opposed to the mere existence of firearms in civilian hands, as well as those who do want stricter control of privately-owned firearms, all ought to be working together to prevent the spread of poorly-made or easily-wrecked firearms that can discharge without intentional human action.

        LBJ, Van Cliburn, Ike, Wendy Davis, Lady Bird, Ann Richards, Barbara Jordan, Molly Ivins, Sully Sullenburger, Drew Brees: Texas is NO Bush League!

        by BlackSheep1 on Thu Aug 29, 2013 at 11:30:39 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Firearms desperately need to be brought under (0+ / 0-)

          the Consumer Product Safety Commission.  Now, one way to do that would be to change the law.

          But there's another way.  Use and Executive Order to set up a CPSC "office within the ATF".

          The ATF is officially in charge of regulating firearms, but they've just never seen it as their mission to make sure the weapons sold in this country are safe.

          1) Bomb Syria 2)???????????? 3) Lives saved!!!!!!

          by JesseCW on Fri Aug 30, 2013 at 02:36:00 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  given that the ATF's not got a great safety record (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            JesseCW

            its ownself, I'm not sure I like getting the folks who brought us Ruby Ridge, Oklahoma City and the Branch Davidian siege more involved.

            LBJ, Van Cliburn, Ike, Wendy Davis, Lady Bird, Ann Richards, Barbara Jordan, Molly Ivins, Sully Sullenburger, Drew Brees: Texas is NO Bush League!

            by BlackSheep1 on Fri Aug 30, 2013 at 11:53:26 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

    •  It may be. (8+ / 0-)

      It appears that these trusts are being used to circumvent regulations (like background checks) that would otherwise be applicable to individuals, and things like silencers are one of the items specifically mentioned in this NYT article.  

      You can find the DOJ/ATF abstract of the NPRM here.  According to this story in The Hill:

      The new rule will only apply to sale of machine guns, silencers and similar firearms for which the AFT has special restrictions.

      At this point, it looks like the draft rule is at the White House, so the actual NPRM won't be released for a while.

      "Ça c'est une chanson que j'aurais vraiment aimé ne pas avoir écrite." -- Barbara

      by FogCityJohn on Thu Aug 29, 2013 at 10:04:05 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Ok, my understanding of the NFA trust process (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        BlackSheep1, VClib

        is that you can bypass the CLEO (chief law enforcement officer) signature with a trust but you still need to go through the background check as an officer of said trust. Thanks for the additional information.

        Kinda wish I had gone the trust route now for my silencer.

        •  That doesn't appear to be the case. (4+ / 0-)

          From the NYT article linked in my prior comment:

          But because of a loophole in federal regulations, buying restricted firearms through a trust also exempts the trust’s members from requirements that apply to individual buyers, including being fingerprinted, obtaining the approval of a chief local law enforcement officer and undergoing a background check.

          Mr. Campbell [a spokesman for the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives] confirmed that under current regulations, background checks were not required for the buying of restricted firearms through trusts. The agency, he added, was aware of the loophole and was reviewing changes to close it.

          "Ça c'est une chanson que j'aurais vraiment aimé ne pas avoir écrite." -- Barbara

          by FogCityJohn on Thu Aug 29, 2013 at 01:09:59 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Interesting. I guess my question is this: (0+ / 0-)

            if you're a criminal, felon, or prohibited possessor, why would you go the trust route? This doesn't legitimize you actually having the firearm on your person. If you're already going to break the law, would you go the legal route and then hope you find a gun shop that doesn't run background checks on form 4 items? That doesn't really make sense to me.

      •  From your article: (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        BlackSheep1, VClib
        But the A.T.F. keeps a registry of the firearms and must approve their sale, a process that can take several months, and the buyer must pay a $200 tax.
        It's almost a year now. 11 months was what I was told when I sent in my paperwork.
    •  Good question (5+ / 0-)

      But I don't think there are many Garands left to repatriate these days.  What happened to the ones in Korea?  All that Korean .30-06 surplus ammo was brought back in years ago.  The CMP obviously still has lots of the Greek ammo left.

      To be honest, I don't know why they are targeting milsurps.  Many of those rifles aren't really involved in crimes or deaths.  Someone isn't going to walk into a crowded place and start blazing away with a bolt action Mosin M44.  And many of the old Eastern Bloc pistols are in odd calibers that aren't common or cheap these days.  Makarovs and Tokarevs are much more expensive to shoot and your neighborhood guns shop most likely doesn't carry much 9x18 or 7.62x25.  

      The sequester is the new Republican immigration reform plan. Make things so bad here in the US that no one will want to live here.

      by Mote Dai on Thu Aug 29, 2013 at 11:30:33 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  and your neighborhood gun shop carries ZE-RO (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        rodentrancher, JesseCW

        7.65 x 53.

        Ask me how I know ...
        they're nearly as hard to find as .22LR.

        To all you RWNJ hoarders out there: ENOUGH already with buying up the .22LR. The DHS doesn't want it. It's not on the list of stuff the Obama administration's considering adding taxes to, either. Quit being greedy!!!!!!!

        (FWIW: after, say, 35 or 40 years in storage? CCI brand .22LR isn't the best stuff to try to shoot at the range. If you're gonna hoard, hoard Federal or Winchester.)

        LBJ, Van Cliburn, Ike, Wendy Davis, Lady Bird, Ann Richards, Barbara Jordan, Molly Ivins, Sully Sullenburger, Drew Brees: Texas is NO Bush League!

        by BlackSheep1 on Thu Aug 29, 2013 at 11:36:28 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  CMP .22lr (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          JesseCW

          You can purchase bulk .22lr from the CMP at about .06/round delivered...but wait times are still 90-120 days.

          Do you have a couple Argentine mausers?  Do you reload the 7.65x53 now?

          The sequester is the new Republican immigration reform plan. Make things so bad here in the US that no one will want to live here.

          by Mote Dai on Thu Aug 29, 2013 at 11:44:20 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  The 93 Argentine is a nice rifle, I reload for it (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            BlackSheep1

            and it is a pretty accurate, easy to load round....I usually use a 185g hard cast gas cked over a light charge.....mine is 115yo.....

            Vaya con Dios Don Alejo
            I want to die a slave to principles. Not to men.
            Emiliano Zapata

            by buddabelly on Thu Aug 29, 2013 at 01:26:06 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  one box of new ammo and (0+ / 0-)

            half-a-dozen empty casings.

            I have not yet found a place to fire it (range rules where I can afford to shoot locally) and have no idea whether the empty brass was previously re-loaded or not. He inherited it from his dad, who did reload at least some stuff (Ruger .44Mag handgun, notably). So, quien sabe?

            So the answer to your first question is, nope. My BIL has one, and he doesn't reload yet. (That is the plan, though.)

            How I wind up doing some of the stuff I do is ... people go, "You used to be in the Air Force, you'll know how to do this ..."  Well, no, actually, but when I was there I learnt the best answer to a question I didn't know the answer to: "I'll find out." The stuff I find out how to do along the way is gravy. Or clutter, depending ...

            and $80 for 500 rounds of .22 short (or $10 for 50) is highway robbery, just like $7 gasoline in hurricane season. This is West damn Texas, people, not New York City ...

            LBJ, Van Cliburn, Ike, Wendy Davis, Lady Bird, Ann Richards, Barbara Jordan, Molly Ivins, Sully Sullenburger, Drew Brees: Texas is NO Bush League!

            by BlackSheep1 on Thu Aug 29, 2013 at 02:12:48 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  I don't think it's all milsurp (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        KVoimakas, JesseCW

        I believe it's only American made weapons that were exported and are now being imported back into the country.

        "I'm a progressive man and I like progressive people" Peter Tosh

        by Texas Lefty on Thu Aug 29, 2013 at 12:21:46 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Ok, thanks for the clarification (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          buddabelly

          If that is the case, I don't really know what the impact of this executive order will be?

          The sequester is the new Republican immigration reform plan. Make things so bad here in the US that no one will want to live here.

          by Mote Dai on Thu Aug 29, 2013 at 12:39:30 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Well it screws the CMP for no reason and means (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            DavidMS, JesseCW

            that when I do decide to get that garand and Carbine they will cost too much.

            Other than that nothing...

            Garands aren't really used in crimes...

            This is the kind of unadulterated crap that actually accomplishes nothing but screws the law abiding....if this is tru The President finally lost me.....I don't like worthless symbolic crap designed to make low info voters think something real has been done....

            Vaya con Dios Don Alejo
            I want to die a slave to principles. Not to men.
            Emiliano Zapata

            by buddabelly on Thu Aug 29, 2013 at 01:28:54 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Garands (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              buddabelly, JesseCW

              I really don't understand this executive order.  This can't be to just target semi-automatic, 8-round Garands. Heck you cannot even use modern .30-06 rounds with them...you need surplus ammo or the expensive new stuff loaded to the old specs.  Are there endless crates of fully automatic surplus firearms sitting in warehouses with our past allies?

              The sequester is the new Republican immigration reform plan. Make things so bad here in the US that no one will want to live here.

              by Mote Dai on Thu Aug 29, 2013 at 01:40:03 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Nope and they wouldn't be able to be imported (0+ / 0-)

                anyway as they weren't registered in  the 68 amnesty or built between 68 and 86 and already in the country and on the books....

                This really is nothing but screw the collectors....lots of self righteous nattering in here though even though they show their ignorance with every comment....

                Really sad and something I thought we were done fucking with.

                I still do want both M-I variations and a tanker too...just becauise...they would go well with the rest of my collection.

                Vaya con Dios Don Alejo
                I want to die a slave to principles. Not to men.
                Emiliano Zapata

                by buddabelly on Thu Aug 29, 2013 at 01:56:38 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Good luck getting a carbine (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  buddabelly, JesseCW

                  The ones selling on the CMP e-auction site go for big bucks, and they are usually the old Bavarian woodland service loaner refurbs.  I first thought that maybe this order was targeting things like M2s or M14s, but I don't think we gave out many of those to allies...not there were very many to begin with as they had relatively short production lives (compared to some of the other military weapons produced later).

                  One other thing, the linked article in the diary says there have been 250,000 of these firearms imported since 2005.  Over 8 years, that averages out to be about 32,000 firearms/year.  The US-based gun manufacturers produce over 5 million firearms a year...so this is about 0.63% of the annual guns produced for the US market.  It is a rounding error.  And are these weapons showing up at crime scenes?  These are usually purchased by collectors and they become safe queens.  I guess the impact is the President can make a strong statement about gun regulation.

                  The sequester is the new Republican immigration reform plan. Make things so bad here in the US that no one will want to live here.

                  by Mote Dai on Thu Aug 29, 2013 at 03:28:29 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  yup, safe queens and shot at classic matches (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    rodentrancher, JesseCW

                    like the John C. Garand matches the club holds...

                    Any stock configuration milsurp from the 03 to the 1917 to the M-14, they are available just not a reimport thing.

                    But the majority shoot Garands.....

                    As for them showing up at crime scenes, I've never heard of it and I really doubt that main battle rifles that weigh 10 pounds, and can't really be cut down as they won't work any more...plus as you mentioned the ammunition requirements are kinda specialized....I load the M-2 Ball or even the M-73 Match but it is critical to use a proper burn rate powder or you will break the rifle....The port pressure must be low enough not to break the op rod but high enough to operate the mechanism........... I really don't see them as a criminals choice.

                    All this does is slap collectors across the face imo....

                    Vaya con Dios Don Alejo
                    I want to die a slave to principles. Not to men.
                    Emiliano Zapata

                    by buddabelly on Thu Aug 29, 2013 at 03:46:18 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  After some reflection... (3+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      rodentrancher, buddabelly, JesseCW

                      I think this is a not so subtle way to scuttle Korea's ability to sell those Garands they have...make them return everyone to the CMP.  They have been fighting with the State Department for a couple of years now about those loaner rifles.  The US claims they are still US property and that Korea has NO claim to ownership.  My guess is the Administration didn't think through the optics of this executive order...or maybe they did and just don't care.

                      The sequester is the new Republican immigration reform plan. Make things so bad here in the US that no one will want to live here.

                      by Mote Dai on Thu Aug 29, 2013 at 04:07:21 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  They should have to return them to the Army as (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        JesseCW

                        that is what the original loan agreements specify....Then the Army turns them over to the CMP to be graded, some refurbished and sold to promote civilian marksmanship skills....

                        The program was started way back when because too may WW1 recruits didn't know the muzzle from the trigger......

                        Vaya con Dios Don Alejo
                        I want to die a slave to principles. Not to men.
                        Emiliano Zapata

                        by buddabelly on Thu Aug 29, 2013 at 07:32:51 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                      •  if that is the reasoning here then I would (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        JesseCW

                        be iin favor of it....I want to see the og agreements upheld, the weapons returned and dispersed to the citizenry as intended....

                        Vaya con Dios Don Alejo
                        I want to die a slave to principles. Not to men.
                        Emiliano Zapata

                        by buddabelly on Thu Aug 29, 2013 at 07:34:16 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  I could be wrong (2+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          buddabelly, JesseCW

                          But I hope I am not.  I know there will be headlines tomorrow trumpeting that Obama is ending the CMP by executive order...but I don't think that is true.  As you pointed out, he CMP is over 100 years old and was established by Congress...I don't think an executive order can end their mission.  The CMP is not technically an importer (the Army receives the firearms and then releases them to the CMP) nor are they considered a "private entity."  I don't think the administration has explained itself very well here and that oversight will lead to incredible headaches.  The collector community will be up in arms and the NRA will do everything they can to confuse this topic with misinformation.

                          The sequester is the new Republican immigration reform plan. Make things so bad here in the US that no one will want to live here.

                          by Mote Dai on Thu Aug 29, 2013 at 08:01:51 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                      •  If there's an exemption allowing the CMP to contin (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        buddabelly

                        importing, that's great.

                        1) Bomb Syria 2)???????????? 3) Lives saved!!!!!!

                        by JesseCW on Fri Aug 30, 2013 at 02:45:53 AM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                    •  If you get involved with the CMP...Garand shooters (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      buddabelly

                      really love competing against other Garand shooters.

                      I miss having the excess cash.

                      1) Bomb Syria 2)???????????? 3) Lives saved!!!!!!

                      by JesseCW on Fri Aug 30, 2013 at 02:44:51 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  They are fun but once I get started and can tear (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        JesseCW

                        myself away from the metallic silhouette ranges I'll start with my model of '17...damn near pristine, never rearsenaled...

                        It's a late Oct of 18 rifle so I really don't think this one ever got issued and thank ghu it was never used as a ceremonial rifle firing blanks....Most of those have barrels that approximate the surface of a cast iron sewer pipe......

                        Vaya con Dios Don Alejo
                        I want to die a slave to principles. Not to men.
                        Emiliano Zapata

                        by buddabelly on Fri Aug 30, 2013 at 05:50:35 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                •  If the goal here is to block carbines, and it (0+ / 0-)

                  might be, I don't understand why they don't just block carbines.

                  1) Bomb Syria 2)???????????? 3) Lives saved!!!!!!

                  by JesseCW on Fri Aug 30, 2013 at 02:43:24 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

              •  Pretty easy to modify them to fire modern (0+ / 0-)

                ammo.  However, a lot of those who buy them specifically want to shoot box stock.

                1) Bomb Syria 2)???????????? 3) Lives saved!!!!!!

                by JesseCW on Fri Aug 30, 2013 at 02:42:39 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

      •  M38 and M44 (0+ / 0-)

        I have one of each.

        Suprisingly accurate but  they kill at both ends!  Talk about shoulder separation!

        •  Multi-purpose (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          JesseCW

          Rifle, sledge hammer, shoulder separator...the Russians never really designed single use items.

          The sequester is the new Republican immigration reform plan. Make things so bad here in the US that no one will want to live here.

          by Mote Dai on Thu Aug 29, 2013 at 12:49:09 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

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