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View Diary: On Libertarianism (34 comments)

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  •  are laws against murder (0+ / 0-)

    morals legislation? cause i think murder is just wrong.

    •  Libertarians support laws against violence and (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Sparhawk

      fraud. Though it can be seen as a morality based, it's consistent with the non-aggression principle.

      •  thought so (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Valar Morghulis

        and so i think a libertarian can be pro-life for the same reason as he can be against murder.

        •  So are you OK with government (0+ / 0-)

          control of every woman's reproduction?  We have Roe v. Wade which already outlaws abortion once the fetus is past viability.  

          Should we now have a personhood amendment that would make every conception instantly fall under government supervision?  That's what the Pauls want.  That's what most Republicans desire.  

          It's the Supreme Court, stupid!

          by Radiowalla on Thu Aug 29, 2013 at 12:21:42 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  that's not how i would phrase it (0+ / 0-)

            China has a 1-child policy that control's women's reproduction.

            I don't care is a woman has zero kids or 37 kids. She can have as many as she wants. No one gets to control that.

            But if she chooses to take actions that create a life, then she is responsible for the consequences of her choice.

            So i'm pro-choice, before conception.

            •  Got it! (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              S F Hippie

              You are for criminalizing all abortions from the moment of conception.

              What penalties do you advocate?  Would you put doctors and nurses in jail?  Would you put the women who have illegal abortions in jail (assuming, of course, that they haven't died in the process)?

              You mentioned the woman taking actions that create a life (I guess you meant having, er, sex).  What about the men who inseminate these women by taking the same action?  Should they be held to any account? Maybe jail time for them?

              I am asking these questions because they automatically flow from the position you are advocating.  They are serious questions about a very serious topic.

              FYI, I don't believe in forced abortion as they have in China any more than I believe in forced childbirth which would exist here under a no-abortion regime.

              It's the Supreme Court, stupid!

              by Radiowalla on Thu Aug 29, 2013 at 12:43:31 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  i don't advocate any (0+ / 0-)

                particular penalties. I expect some hefty fines would keep almost all of the providers out of the field. I wonder what the laws were back before RvW.

                What about the men who inseminate these women by taking the same action?  Should they be held to any account? Maybe jail time for them?
                making babies is not a crime. So no i would not jail men for making babies (except rapists of course).
                •  If you are going to criminalize something (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  S F Hippie, Glen The Plumber

                  you have to determine the penalties.  Before Roe there were a variety of penalites, including jail, loss of medical license and I believe these were determined by each state.  I don't have the specifics in front of me right now.

                  Are you OK with the loss of life that women incur when they inevitably seek illegal abortions?  I guess you must be since you think it is fine to deny them the right to decide what is best for them and their own families.

                  I think I'm done engaging you in this discussion because I think you are trolling here.  I don't predict that you will stay here very long.  Good day.

                  It's the Supreme Court, stupid!

                  by Radiowalla on Thu Aug 29, 2013 at 02:16:44 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

            •  3ofspades (0+ / 0-)

              "But if she chooses to take actions that create a life, then she is responsible for the consequences of her choice."

              What if she was raped? Is she still responsible for those consequences? And does the government have the right to rape her again with a mandatory vaginal probe? Just how intrusive do you think is acceptable? Has the woman not been violated enough and then have her forced by the government to bear the results of somebody's criminal assault on her? And all of this because of the morality of people that have nothing to do with her problem?

              Never trust a naked busdriver.

              by Adagio4639 on Sat Aug 31, 2013 at 12:25:54 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

        •  3of spades (0+ / 0-)

          He (the Libertarian) wouldn't be pro-life on any moral ground since he opposes all forms of moral legislation, and lets face it, that's the objection to abortion. There is not one argument against abortion that is based on the non-aggression principle. Forcing a woman to have a child after being raped for example is a moral position based on religious grounds. Since we cannot and do not legislate religion in this country, the grounds for denying the woman an abortion based on religious sentiments would be unconstitutional. We don't pass laws based on religious doctrine. That would violate the first Amendment.
          "congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion". Making a law that would deny abortion based on a religious view...establishes religion as a legislating principle. That's unconstitutional, and as a strict constitutionalist, I doubt that you'd want to violate that document.

          Never trust a naked busdriver.

          by Adagio4639 on Sat Aug 31, 2013 at 12:20:29 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  3ofspades (0+ / 0-)

      Laws against murder are pretty clear. They are in place to protect the civil rights of all people. The right to exist is inalienable. Nobody has the right to take that from somebody. I think we all agree that murder is wrong, but we also recognize the various degrees in which a murder may take place. Not all murders are the same or fall under the same legal description.

      Never trust a naked busdriver.

      by Adagio4639 on Sat Aug 31, 2013 at 12:12:02 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

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