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  •  A question that deserves an answer (6+ / 0-)
    Ohio was one of the top seven interstate suppliers of crime guns. In 2009, Ohio was also the top interstate supplier of crime guns to both West Virginia and Michigan.
    If guns are easy to get in state X and this supports an increased crime rate in state Y, then since the guns are by definition easier to get for residents of state X (they do not have to drive as far, among another things), why isn't state X's gun crime rate higher than state Y's?

    After all, if Virginia is a source for New York illegal guns, and Illinois is a source for Chicago guns, and so on, why aren't the locals shooting themselves up more than the people who drive in from out of state?

    So if Michigan's homicide rate per capita (6.2 per 100k in 2011) is higher than Ohio's (4.4 per 100k in 2011), yet guns are easier to get in Ohio, then how exactly is firearm availability the culprit?

    Unlike the comment at the bottom of the section, this one is not at all snarky. I am genuinely interested in what people think is the answer to "why is the place where guns are easier to get less violent than a neighboring place where they are harder to get?"

    •  No, sorry. That's a snarky red herring (16+ / 0-)

      intended to distract from the problem. And by qualifying gun violence strictly as homicide, you're simply trying to put the best available spin on it. Anyway, I'm sure the gunmakers appreciate your support. Even with a rare moment of candor.

      Unlike the comment at the bottom of the section, this one is not at all snarky.
      If you're here to troll on their behalf I suggest moving on.

      Hermits have no peer pressure. -- Steven Wright
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      by tytalus on Sat Aug 31, 2013 at 02:08:05 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Answer the question. (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        theatre goon, oldpunk

        If firearms availability is the issue then why the murder so high in Chicago with its lower firearm availability?

        Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither.

        by FrankRose on Sat Aug 31, 2013 at 10:35:46 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  You Do Know... (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Glen The Plumber, tytalus

          That Illinois is in the middle in terms of overall firearm murders, right?  Though I'd hardly call it hard to get a firearm. It is harder than the states around it to get a gun legally, but not that hard.  Illinois' overall gun homicide rate is similar to states with significant urban poverty, but lower than most southern states with far laxer laws.  

          Choosing an arbitrary boundary like a city boundary and claiming it makes it hard to get a firearm is exactly the kind of nonsense the NRA traffics in.  You can cross the city boundary into inner ring suburbs or into another county in Illinois and firearms are as easy as the rest of the state. Or you can go into Indiana which isn't much more than crossing a county barrier and buy from private sellers who aren't even required to ask for ID or keep any record whatsoever of a purchase.

      •  I haven't had any herring in a while, now my (6+ / 0-)

        appetite is calling for some herring.

        “In keeping silent about evil, in burying it so deep within us that no sign of it appears on the surface, we are implanting it … we are thereby ripping the foundations of justice from beneath new generations.” - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

        by DefendOurConstitution on Sun Sep 01, 2013 at 04:57:01 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Then you're going hungry, bud. (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          theatre goon

          Chicago has a higher murder rate and lower firearms availability.
          That is cold, hard fact.

          Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither.

          by FrankRose on Sun Sep 01, 2013 at 10:33:36 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  That is Cold, Hard Nonsense (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Glen The Plumber

            Lower availability within the 234 square miles proper of the City of Chicago doesn't make firearms hard to get when Indiana which shares a border with Chicago doesn't require an ID or any record of sale for private sales not to mention a well documented history of cross border trafficking.

            By your theory Illinois, New York, Massachusetts, and Connecticut as examples should have the highest rates of gun homicides--but they don't.  They are in the middle or lower.  Those areas with the most lax laws and high poverty have the highest.  We usually call those states the south.  

            •  Yet Indiana doesn't have the murder rate Chicago (0+ / 0-)

              does.

              And availability is easier for them. After all, they don't have to leave the state.

              "By your theory"
              I haven't expounded a theory. I am simply pointing out the falsity of the theory of "less availability of guns, means less murders".

              The place with the most murders per capita is Washington DC.....yet another place with some of the most draconian gun laws in the USA.
              FYI, Maryland is third.

              Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither.

              by FrankRose on Sun Sep 01, 2013 at 06:56:50 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  You Don't Read Well (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Glen The Plumber, coquiero

                ===I haven't expounded a theory. I am simply pointing out the falsity of the theory of "less availability of guns, means less murders".

                More nonsense, but nice try.

                ---If firearms availability is the issue then why the murder so high in Chicago with its lower firearm availability?

                Firearms are highly available so your point is moot.  Firearms are highly available around DC.  Again, choosing a city right next to a state with very lax laws flips your entire point on its head.  

                Missouri is third, Maryland fourth if you are talking about the 2010 numbers. However, look down the list and tell me how you disagree that high poverty and high availability aren't over represented in the upper half.  DC and Chicago fit that profile by the way.  

                •  Firearms are less availiable in Chicago than in (0+ / 0-)

                  Indiana, yet Chicago has the higher murder rate.
                  If you are arguing that criminals ignore such gun laws, I couldn't agree more.

                  "Missouri is third, Maryland fourth"
                  I am using 2010 murder per capita. Maryland is third.

                  "high availability"
                  Both Chicago and DC have some of the most strict gun laws in the USA. They also have the highest murder rates.
                  The utter failure of gun control measures, for all to see.

                  Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither.

                  by FrankRose on Mon Sep 02, 2013 at 07:48:30 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  And you avoided the point (0+ / 0-)

                    Not unusual, but if you only have to drive a city boundary to get a firearm, that doesn't make them difficult to get.  

                    The utter failure of gun laws is when an individual is allowed to cross a city and state boundary in one and buy a firearm without ID, without a background check, without any record of the sale, and with no questions asked.  That's legal and that's the scandal here.  

                  •  Also (0+ / 0-)

                    You are reading murders in 2010 with Maryland in 3rd.  When narrowed to gun murders it's Missouri in 3rd and Maryland in fourth. You are sorting on the wrong column.  We all do that and this isn't criticism--it's just a clarification.  The difference between the two isn't great.  

                    •  I disagree. I am using the correct column. (0+ / 0-)

                      What difference does it make how one is murdered?
                      As Kos has said "There is a bizarre obsession with the delivery mechanism of death"

                      Nor am I missing the point: Availability is easier in the states with more gun rights, yet they have a lower murder rate.
                      It would appear that there are, at the very least, far more pertinent variables for murder rates than firearm availability.

                      Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither.

                      by FrankRose on Mon Sep 02, 2013 at 11:55:57 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Because we are talking about guns (0+ / 0-)

                        and gun murders....this is really fucking obvious.  

                        And wrong again.  Look at the south with the laxest gun laws and higher murder rates.  When you have high poverty and easy access to guns, those are the highest rates of gun murders.  Then, high poverty, then low poverty.  It's fairly simple pattern for any honest human being.  

        •  Actually I have only had white herring, has anyone (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Glen The Plumber, coquiero, WakeUpNeo

          actually ever eaten any red herring?

          “In keeping silent about evil, in burying it so deep within us that no sign of it appears on the surface, we are implanting it … we are thereby ripping the foundations of justice from beneath new generations.” - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

          by DefendOurConstitution on Sun Sep 01, 2013 at 11:49:59 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  Where is the evidence that places with lax gun (7+ / 0-)

      laws are less violent?  Wyoming has like the highest firearms suicide rate per capita in the US.

    •  I think it's rural/urban, not cities themselves (7+ / 0-)

      but large cities with a big income disparity and a permanent minority underclass. If you are without much hope of ever seeing a better life and society seems to have given up on you and anyone that looks like you, it changes your outlook. Police are not there to protect you, no one you know just up and applied for and got a job that pays a real decent wage.

      It's hard to understand, it helps to have been very very poor with no potential for anything better and to also be a young guy at the same time.

      “Conservation… is a positive exercise of skill and insight, not merely a negative exercise of abstinence and caution…” Aldo Leopold

      by ban nock on Sun Sep 01, 2013 at 03:06:26 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

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