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View Diary: Obama makes the right choice and will present his case on Syria to the whole Congress for a vote (521 comments)

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  •  He's not advocating for war. He's advocating for (17+ / 0-)

    living up to international agreements to NOT use chemical weapons and for action that will limit such intention and ability in the future.

    Huge difference.

    •  And which of those international agreements (12+ / 0-)

      allows the USA to enforce international law without UN sanction?

      Dogs from the street can have all the desirable qualities that one could want from pet dogs. Most adopted stray dogs are usually humble and exceptionally faithful to their owners as if they are grateful for this kindness. -- H.M. Bhumibol Adulyadej

      by corvo on Sat Aug 31, 2013 at 11:56:21 AM PDT

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      •  A UN paralyzed in this case by Russia (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Treetrunk, PorridgeGun

        running interference for Assad on the UNSC. I oppose the strike on Syria because both sides are almost equally evil (the FSA isn't much better than Assad)

        •  That doesn't answer my question. (8+ / 0-)

          What international law says that the USA can take over from a paralyzed UNSC?

          Dogs from the street can have all the desirable qualities that one could want from pet dogs. Most adopted stray dogs are usually humble and exceptionally faithful to their owners as if they are grateful for this kindness. -- H.M. Bhumibol Adulyadej

          by corvo on Sat Aug 31, 2013 at 12:04:36 PM PDT

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          •  The Guardian (0+ / 0-)

            has a good discussion of the ramifications of international law outside the UN.

            It's a fallacy that international law is managed by and goes only through the UN.

            47 is the new 51!

            by nickrud on Sat Aug 31, 2013 at 12:09:04 PM PDT

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            •  You should try reading your own link. (5+ / 0-)

              The talking heads all quoted agree that using CWs is a war crime (and guess what, water is wet!), but none of them can cite any international convention justifying the enforcement, by military intervention, of such conventions absent UN approval.

              Dogs from the street can have all the desirable qualities that one could want from pet dogs. Most adopted stray dogs are usually humble and exceptionally faithful to their owners as if they are grateful for this kindness. -- H.M. Bhumibol Adulyadej

              by corvo on Sat Aug 31, 2013 at 12:54:50 PM PDT

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              •  you should read it again (0+ / 0-)

                since it makes the fundamental point that international law exists outside the UN. The UNSC is not the equivalent of the Supreme Court as final arbiter. One quote:

                if that state had failed to protect its population from atrocities. R2P, established in 2005, could be advanced as a legal justification in Syria, but its validity in the absence of a security council mandate is in dispute.
                If the concept of the UN being the final word was indisputable there would be no dispute. You might find reading about the 'responsibility to protect' doctrine. Here's a link that, while the author doing a bang up job of casting it as a UN supervised action still recognizes that there's substantial responsible analysis that, in the case of UN inaction, the requirement of capable actors to act does not cease.

                47 is the new 51!

                by nickrud on Sat Aug 31, 2013 at 01:27:52 PM PDT

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                •  "is in dispute." Exactly. (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  greenbell, NonnyO

                  And why is it in dispute? Because there's no international convention that allows us to intervene, and we keep insisting we can.  On what basis, pray?

                  Dogs from the street can have all the desirable qualities that one could want from pet dogs. Most adopted stray dogs are usually humble and exceptionally faithful to their owners as if they are grateful for this kindness. -- H.M. Bhumibol Adulyadej

                  by corvo on Sat Aug 31, 2013 at 02:40:50 PM PDT

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                •  and *really,* now, (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  greenbell, NonnyO

                  if it's a matter of honest dispute, then why not err on the side that doesn't involve (1) killing people and (2) risking provoking a regional war?

                  Dogs from the street can have all the desirable qualities that one could want from pet dogs. Most adopted stray dogs are usually humble and exceptionally faithful to their owners as if they are grateful for this kindness. -- H.M. Bhumibol Adulyadej

                  by corvo on Sat Aug 31, 2013 at 02:55:40 PM PDT

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                  •  I'm in favor of not blowing people up (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    edwardssl

                    as a general principle. Right now no one has given me a reason for blowing up Assad's army.

                    The convention that, theoretically, does is the 1925 convention against chemical weapons, which Syria did sign. And, the principle of responsibility to protect, which the UN General Assembly has approved. The problem I have with that document I sited is is ameliorative, not prophylactic.

                    47 is the new 51!

                    by nickrud on Sat Aug 31, 2013 at 04:56:59 PM PDT

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                  •  I should probably add (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    edwardssl

                    that I'm a living, walking, talking example of what the Tea Party fears. I'm a One World Government supporter.

                    The UN? A failed (so far) vehicle. But until there is one, I'm not going to ignore the international laws and conventions that actually provide the paltry oil that does govern international relations. All of them, not just the ones that advance my goal.

                    47 is the new 51!

                    by nickrud on Sat Aug 31, 2013 at 05:04:44 PM PDT

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              •  again, forgot the link. (0+ / 0-)

                47 is the new 51!

                by nickrud on Sat Aug 31, 2013 at 01:28:47 PM PDT

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      •  None. But in the Process of either Declaring (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        LanceBoyle

        War, or not, or saying "not now",  the US Congress will have an enormous influence on the behavior of other states interested in the outcome. And the Predident's stature is enhanced Internationally, as was Cameron's. We have real Democracy at work for the first time in my lifetime, since 1956. I am celebrating today. This is the turning point against the MIC and the control of the economy, politics, and government AND the National Debt.

        Mr. Obama is a leader today.

        Britian said, not now. Of course the press, looking for football scores, said.. ITS NO! It wasnt. I was not now. That is the nuance lost in today's ADD media. They are all Special Ed now, so lets be clear here.

        Figures don't lie, but liars do figure-Mark Twain

        by OregonOak on Sat Aug 31, 2013 at 12:37:48 PM PDT

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    •  He's advocating dropping bombs on people (0+ / 0-)

      from airplanes.

      You can call it whatever the hell you like.

      When you triangulate everything, you can't even roll downhill...

      by PhilJD on Sat Aug 31, 2013 at 02:34:03 PM PDT

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