Skip to main content

View Diary: our 2016 Dem Pres nominee Hillary Clinton backs strong military response in Syria (87 comments)

Comment Preferences

  •  Well, it's probably because, when she thinks (10+ / 0-)

    about intervention, she thinks of Bosnia, Kosovo, and Libya, which were all, more or less, successful.

    And I'm sure she also thinks of Rwanda, where a lack of intervention turned out to be a horrid mistake.

    Meanwhile, those against intervention tend to see this mainly through the Iraq War lens, which is a pretty distorted way of looking at it that doesn't display much insight into what is actually taking place now.

    "A candle loses nothing by lighting another candle" - Mohammed Nabbous, R.I.P.

    by Lawrence on Wed Sep 04, 2013 at 05:07:01 AM PDT

    •  More or less agree. (7+ / 0-)

      Though this stuff still makes me nervous -- it can spiral out of control easily.

    •  this has nothing to do (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      NearlyNormal

      with bosnia, kosovo, libya, or iraq. she might as well remember carthage or the maine or super bowl xxiv.

      The cold passion for truth hunts in no pack. -Robinson Jeffers

      by Laurence Lewis on Wed Sep 04, 2013 at 07:21:17 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Uh, say what? (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        jncca

        That makes no sense whatsoever.

        "A candle loses nothing by lighting another candle" - Mohammed Nabbous, R.I.P.

        by Lawrence on Wed Sep 04, 2013 at 07:32:20 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  comparing syria (0+ / 0-)

          to bosnia, kosovo, libya, or iraq makes no sense.

          The cold passion for truth hunts in no pack. -Robinson Jeffers

          by Laurence Lewis on Wed Sep 04, 2013 at 07:38:12 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Actually, there are strong parallels to (0+ / 0-)

            Bosnia/Jugoslavia.

            Explain why you think that there is no comparison.

            "A candle loses nothing by lighting another candle" - Mohammed Nabbous, R.I.P.

            by Lawrence on Wed Sep 04, 2013 at 07:52:37 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  other than that (0+ / 0-)

              bosnia was genocide, and bombing belgrade forced the serbs to stop.

              if anything, this is like rwanda- but not in terms of the atrocity, rather in terms of the impotence of a western response. there was nothing to bomb in rwanda. air support couldn't have protected anyone. because of the diffuse and decentralized nature of the genocide, it would have taken a massive ground presence- hundreds of thousands of troops- to stop the massacre. that number of troops could not have been mobilized quickly enough.

              The cold passion for truth hunts in no pack. -Robinson Jeffers

              by Laurence Lewis on Wed Sep 04, 2013 at 07:57:32 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  I think you're confusing the Kosovo event (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Hawkjt, valion, wu ming

                with the civil/ethnic/sectarian war in Bosnia.  Belgrade was bombed during the Kosovo conflict.....

                The Bosnian War and the Syrian War have quite a few similarities:

                ongoing multi-year civil war with 3 or more parties involved.

                ethnicity and religion playing an increasingly large role in the conflict.

                one side dominant for a long time because they have lots of weapons.

                Islamists becoming involved with the other side because world is ignoring the war.

                International community did not want to get involved until a Democratic U.S. President said "enough is enough."

                Driven by considerable regional events.  In one case the collapse of the eastern bloc in another the Arab Spring.

                Russia supporting the side that was most guilty of war crimes.

                etc.

                "A candle loses nothing by lighting another candle" - Mohammed Nabbous, R.I.P.

                by Lawrence on Wed Sep 04, 2013 at 08:26:09 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  you cannot separate (0+ / 0-)

                  bosnia from kosovo. it was all about serb ethnic cleansing. although, yes, it was kosovo that finally triggered the u.s. response, not the genocide in bosnia. but the bombing did lead to the end of the bosnian genocide.

                  but the point is that there was a clear target, the bombing of which forced the aggressor to back down- across the board. there is no belgrade in syria.

                  The cold passion for truth hunts in no pack. -Robinson Jeffers

                  by Laurence Lewis on Wed Sep 04, 2013 at 08:55:05 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  You are wrong. (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    wu ming

                    You need to brush up on your knowledge of those historical events.

                    The Bosnian War was from 1991 to 1995 and ended with the Dayton Accords.  The U.S., along with NATO, helped achieve those peace accords by shifting the balance with a no fly zone, peacekeepers, and by bombing Serbian military targets at the end of the war.

                    The Kosovo event was in 1999 and the Bosniaks and Croats had nothing to do with it.

                    "A candle loses nothing by lighting another candle" - Mohammed Nabbous, R.I.P.

                    by Lawrence on Wed Sep 04, 2013 at 09:04:40 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  um (0+ / 0-)

                      bosnia and kosovo both were about serb ethnic cleansing. you cannot separate the two. belgrade ended the last phase of it.

                      but if you really want to be specific about the 1995 bombing around sarajevo, you're talking some 500 civilian casualties, and an occupation by some 60,000 ground troops. so, to be successful like bosnia means a belgrade to bomb, and to be successful like kosovo means massive civilian casualities and a large scale occupation.

                      but there's still no comparison to kosovo, the key bombing campaign of which was in relief of a besieged city. militarily, kosovo and syria could not be more different.

                      The cold passion for truth hunts in no pack. -Robinson Jeffers

                      by Laurence Lewis on Wed Sep 04, 2013 at 09:23:59 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  the last paragraph (0+ / 0-)

                        i mean bosnia.

                        The cold passion for truth hunts in no pack. -Robinson Jeffers

                        by Laurence Lewis on Wed Sep 04, 2013 at 09:24:54 AM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                      •  Ok, at this point I have the impression that (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        wu ming

                        you are trying to be obstinate or just arguing for the sake of arguing.

                        Kosovo was completely unlike the situation in Syria.

                        Bosnia was, however, very similar.

                        The bombing of Belgrade was an event separate from the Bosnia War.

                        Although the Serbs were involved in both events, they were completely different scenarios.

                        You're getting all kinds of things confused here and I think we will just have to agree to disagree.

                        A good day to you.

                        "A candle loses nothing by lighting another candle" - Mohammed Nabbous, R.I.P.

                        by Lawrence on Wed Sep 04, 2013 at 09:47:49 AM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  the serbs (0+ / 0-)

                          doesn't necessarily mean serbia, it means the ethnic serbs. which both conflicts were really about. really a continuation of the second balkan war that preceded world war i.

                          bosnia is not similar. it's more similar to libya, where benghazi was about to be besieged, and the bombing prevented that from happening. in 1995, sarajevo was besieged, and the bombing targeted the forces surrounding it. there is no similar dynamic in syria. there are no easy and obvious targets, the bombing of which will immediately lead to relief for civilians.

                          The cold passion for truth hunts in no pack. -Robinson Jeffers

                          by Laurence Lewis on Wed Sep 04, 2013 at 09:53:45 AM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

              •  the best parallel is the lebanese civil war IMO (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Lawrence

                in terms of the sectarian divisions, the fractured and shifting alliances between militias, the involvement of multiple regional powers playing proxy games, and the urbanized nature of the warfare.

                only part that hasn't happened yet is the repeated direct intervention and occupation by said regional powers, and it looks like we're working hard to get that stage of the clusterfuck going.

            •  I'd say there are even stronger parallels to (0+ / 0-)

              Libya, Where Ms. Clinton had a direct role, the results of which are  still playing out, with a remarkable lack of attention.

              •  Not really. (0+ / 0-)

                Libya doesn't have the Shia/Sunni divide that is currently ripping into both Iraq and Syria, so, while it is pretty chaotic there now due mostly to the fact that the Gaddafi Regime didn't have strong state institutions like Egypt and Tunisia did, they'll likely figure things out after a traversing a bumpy road for some years to come.

                The international community did pretty much drop the ball after Gaddafi fell, though.  It should have immediately stepped in to provide training for a new and modern police force as well some extensive institutional training.  The Libyans were asking for this from the outset and were even willing to pay for it, so it's pretty damning for the E.U., which is so close, that it didn't step in to help in a major manner.  So the training hasn't really kicked into gear until now and Italy is the only country stepping up to the plate in a big way so far, with the U.K. and France now also contributing somewhat.

                And that's actually a lesson that needs to be learned from Libya and Afghanistan.  When a regime falls and there are no institutions left to pick up the pieces, immediate and substantial help needs to be given.  If that had happened in the very beginning in Afghanistan we wouldn't be there anymore.  That should have happened faster in Libya, as well. And that is something that needs to be on the mind of all policymakers currently discussing the Syria issue.

                In Bosnia it actually worked out pretty well, but only because lots of help was given once the war ended.

                As for Patrick Cockburn... his "reporting" on Libya has always pretty much sucked.  He is very biased, sensationalizes and distorts the negative while ignoring the positive.  Maybe he was once an admirer of Gaddafi or something, as many on the European left were in the 1970s, because he sure has an axe to grind.

                "A candle loses nothing by lighting another candle" - Mohammed Nabbous, R.I.P.

                by Lawrence on Wed Sep 04, 2013 at 09:34:21 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  nope (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Lawrence

                libya was very different in many ways, from the social structures to the nature of the regime being overthrown, to the geography of the conflict, to the alignment of the regional powers and UN security council, to the history of rebellions (or lack thereof) leading up to the crisis.

                other than both being arab countries, and having salafi/al qaeda elements in the opposition, there's not much similar between the two.

Subscribe or Donate to support Daily Kos.

  • Recommended (131)
  • Community (62)
  • Elections (39)
  • 2016 (37)
  • Environment (36)
  • Bernie Sanders (35)
  • Culture (30)
  • Hillary Clinton (30)
  • Media (29)
  • Republicans (29)
  • Climate Change (27)
  • Spam (23)
  • Education (23)
  • Congress (23)
  • Civil Rights (22)
  • Trans-Pacific Partnership (21)
  • Labor (21)
  • Barack Obama (21)
  • Texas (20)
  • Law (20)
  • Click here for the mobile view of the site