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View Diary: Manipulation and Twisting DBAD Rule (235 comments)

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  •  Why don't you ever provide specific links to (30+ / 0-)

    these claims. I have seen others ask you for the same evidence over and over. Who is this group?
    Hamden stating an opinion, "Paranoid conspiracy theory of global proportions," is not a personal attack on Ray Pensador.

    "No matter where you are now, now is the time to build coalitions" Rev. William Barber

    by Oke on Fri Sep 06, 2013 at 10:42:28 AM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  And what did he back it up with, again? n/t (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Johnny Q, 3goldens, Ray Pensador

      This all started with "what the Republicans did to language".

      by lunachickie on Fri Sep 06, 2013 at 10:50:43 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  oh, lunachickie. (8+ / 0-)

        You know I admire you and how often we agree.

        But extraordinary claims demand extraordinary proof.

        Snowden effected Syria which will effect "global conflagration"/"global dominance."

        That's an extraordinary claim.

        The burden of proof shifted.

        © grover


        So if you get hit by a bus tonight, would you be satisfied with how you spent today, your last day on earth? Live like tomorrow is never guaranteed, because it's not. -- Me.

        by grover on Fri Sep 06, 2013 at 02:03:45 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I hear ya! (0+ / 0-)

          That may very well be something that comes up from time to time (any diarist making an "extraordinary claim"). We see it all the time.

          If I've misunderstood this particular situation, please forgive me, but my interpretation was that HamdenRice posited his position in a diary that was not Ray's.  If he did it IN a diary of Ray's, that's something else. But even there, it should be posited to ANY diarist that they really should back up such claims specifically, explain themselves, make edits, or be hide-rated. There should not be these blanket accusations that are not always backed up with anything other than pile-ons and bluster. I've seen more than a few accusations of this type which also seem to be hit-and-run, where the accuser never, ever returns to back up their own claim.

          I bring this up at all because I've seen it now at least five times, this dragging it around the site, calling out this diarist in other diaries. I don't care who the diarist is or who the commenter is, that's crap that seriously needs to stop.

          This all started with "what the Republicans did to language".

          by lunachickie on Fri Sep 06, 2013 at 05:39:29 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Yup. (0+ / 0-)
            I bring this up at all because I've seen it now at least five times, this dragging it around the site, calling out this diarist in other diaries. I don't care who the diarist is or who the commenter is, that's crap that seriously needs to stop.
            There are a few other names that keep getting dragged around. But Pensador's name has the most miles on it.

            Even when I avoid bumping into him (and heh, he might be avoiding bumping into me), there he seems to be, with folks fighting not over his ideas but over HIM.

            It's gotta stop.

            © grover


            So if you get hit by a bus tonight, would you be satisfied with how you spent today, your last day on earth? Live like tomorrow is never guaranteed, because it's not. -- Me.

            by grover on Fri Sep 06, 2013 at 06:05:49 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

    •  that was always my fear when DBAD was introduced (21+ / 0-)

      that people would try to twist it to mean "you can't disagree with me."

      praise crom kos clarified about "debate-free" zones.

      Please don't dominate the rap, Jack, if you got nothin' new to say - Grateful Dead

      by Cedwyn on Fri Sep 06, 2013 at 10:53:28 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Funny thing happened today (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Johnny Q, grover

      HamdenRice inject a slam against Ray Pensador and "his cult" in a diary that had nothing to do with Ray and in which Ray wasn't even commenting.

      This thread

      then this  comment specifically by HamdenRice

      I don't really read many of Ray's diaries and I didn't even know HamdenRice before reading your diary this morning. Then I came across this glaring example of why people may have some facts on their side concerning people specifically targeting Ray and the people who rec his diaries/are members of "his cult".

      The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie, deliberate, contrived, and dishonest, but the myth, persistent, persuasive and unrealistic. --John F. Kennedy

      by CenPhx on Fri Sep 06, 2013 at 01:15:16 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I can only speak for myself as I read of what you (9+ / 0-)

        linked to, can't speak for Hamden.
        What I see is Hamden giving an example of why he concurs with the comment he replied to.

        You say you don't read many of Ray's diaries. In my diary there's a comment by kalmoth that links to a number of Ray's diaries. Maybe you should read some of those before you judge Hamden's frustration and opinion too harshly.

        At a site where the primary purpose it to elect more and better Democrats many people are fed up and frustrated. Ray just happens to be a very prominent figure and is the one who is throwing accusations that even in this comment section he's been asked to link evidence yet not done so, once again.

        "No matter where you are now, now is the time to build coalitions" Rev. William Barber

        by Oke on Fri Sep 06, 2013 at 01:24:10 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Here's the rub for me (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          erratic, JosephK74, jeff in nyc, PhilJD

          The reason I stopped reading Ray's diaries is because I found them over the top. So I understand being frustrated with this particular diarist's writings. I do sympathize. But since your diary this morning and then this example from HamdenRice that I stumbled across, I took a quick look at some of HamdenRice's comments about Ray.

          I think Ray's implication that we are overrun with sockpuppets and shills is not okay. I think HamdenRice constantly saying Ray is mentally ill is not okay. Have you seen this stuff?

          Here are some examples (my emphasis added):

          Link to Comment

          Two things (3+ / 0-)
          In his diary, he clearly states that he thought the helicopters were following him until he had second thoughts and realized he wasn't in the language you quote.
          Also, neither paranoia nor grandiosity are mental illnesses, but character traits or personality dispositions, although the mental illness of schizophrenia can lead to extreme paranoia and grandiosity.
          It's hard for me to see how Ray could not be legitimately called either
          if he thought he could personally call a city wide uprising (and not a single person answered his call) and that his call was so threatening that a police helicopter was following him.
          by HamdenRice on Mon Aug 05, 2013 at 02:14:02 PM PDT
          Link to Comment
          "word salad" sells on the new DK (1+ / 0-)
          I find Rays screeds delusional -- about as convincing and fact based as the guy on the subway claiming Martians are communicating to him though his dental fillings.
          But it tells you a lot about DK that this word salad is routinely on the wreck list.
          by HamdenRice on Mon Jun 24, 2013 at 02:19:44 AM PDT
          Link to Comment
          Thinkers need to think verifiable and falsifiable (0+ / 0-)
          thoughts. The way they help society is by coming up with accurate ideas subject to being proven right or wrong.
          Ray's thoughts are along the lines of the guy on the subway claiming that Martians are communicating to him and only him through his dental filings.
          Unlikely, but also neither provable nor disprovable.
          I think he's better off in another line of endeavor and so are the readers of DK.
          by HamdenRice on Fri Apr 26, 2013 at 11:58:57 AM PDT
          This one is extra special, because it was in a diary about not being a dick, for crying out loud.
          Link to Comment
          ^^^Exactly right. I would just add this (0+ / 0-)
          The whole 'sockpuppet' issue came up b/c people (Read: Ray)  can't believe someone can actually disagree with them and the only thing they can come up with is that they are paid to do so.
          I would just add that Ray's basic point of view is, in my opinion, completely off the wall.
          So it's even more bizarre that he has these completely wacko views and then can't believe everyone doesn't share them, of if they don't share his views, they must be incredibly stupid -- which is what he implies in virtually every diary.
          It's like the scruffy guy on the subway claiming he is getting messages from Mars through his dental fillings, while castigating everyone on the subway car for being idiots and sheeple for not realizing the Martians are engaging in mind control.
          by HamdenRice on Wed Aug 14, 2013 at 06:16:26 AM PDT
          When HamdenRice isn’t saying Ray is mentally ill, he or she does this:
          Link to Comment
          Worse, "TheY" are out to get YoU, Ray PensAdor! (1+ / 0-)
          This is such an important diary. But the one thing you left out is that this gigantic criminal conspiracy has targeted YOU, Ray Pensador, Ray the THINKER as target number one, because every revolution needs a revolutionary thinker to tell the rest of us what to do, and that's you and THEY know it, so they are targeting not Al Qeada, but YOU Ray Pensador, Ray, the THINKER for us ALL !!
          Please be careful. We need your GUidance~~!!
          As I said, I can understand being frustrated with Ray's posts, especially after looking at kalmoth's list, but I wouldn't want to have HamdenRice as my cheerleader either.

          The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie, deliberate, contrived, and dishonest, but the myth, persistent, persuasive and unrealistic. --John F. Kennedy

          by CenPhx on Fri Sep 06, 2013 at 02:15:49 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  My feelings about Ray's diaries are well expressed (4+ / 0-)

        within his diaries. Let's just say I'm not an admirer of his rhetorical skills.

        I think, had I come across those comments,  I would have smacked those commenters and possibly HRd them as well.

        I hate, hate, hate when people take pot shots against members who aren't even around to defend themselves. I don't care if there is a site rule against it. It's horrible behavior.

        And FWIW, when I've done it elsewhere, defending other members who were attacked when they weren't around, my comments were reccd by a wide swath of the community.

        We can't be a community if it's ok to bully people in absentia.  

        I'm glad you spoke up. You were kinder than I would have been.

        © grover


        So if you get hit by a bus tonight, would you be satisfied with how you spent today, your last day on earth? Live like tomorrow is never guaranteed, because it's not. -- Me.

        by grover on Fri Sep 06, 2013 at 01:59:54 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  What does that even mean? This is an async (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          phenry, Yasuragi

          meeting place -- you never really know if someone is present, lurking, or simply out-to-lunch.

          Technically, everyone is in absentia except for when you see their post magically appear... and that could be from their cellphone and be a one-off.

          Happy little moron, Lucky little man.
          I wish I was a moron, MY GOD, Perhaps I am!
          —Spike Milligan

          by polecat on Fri Sep 06, 2013 at 02:01:57 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  If a diary has been sitting around for hours and (5+ / 0-)

            hours and a member hasn't been in it at all, then taking pot shots at someone who hasn't shown up in it seems completely unreasonable to me.

            Actually, potshots in general are unreasonable. But if someone has been commenting in a diary, then they're an active participant in a diary, and presumably may return to defend themselves.

            It's when someone hasn't even registered their presence in a diary and people are slamming them that it seems particularly unreasonable.

            Otherwise, we would all be obligated to monitor every diary just to ensure that we're not being insulted behind our backs, presuming people care about such things. And many people do.

            You disagree?

            © grover


            So if you get hit by a bus tonight, would you be satisfied with how you spent today, your last day on earth? Live like tomorrow is never guaranteed, because it's not. -- Me.

            by grover on Fri Sep 06, 2013 at 02:13:22 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  It means you can't escape the piefight (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              polecat, grover

              between the people who like Ray and the people who don't, because they bring it into threads and diaries which have no relation to it.

              The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie, deliberate, contrived, and dishonest, but the myth, persistent, persuasive and unrealistic. --John F. Kennedy

              by CenPhx on Fri Sep 06, 2013 at 02:17:54 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  Crikey. I live by the potshot. :( (0+ / 0-)

              (but on the rest, I must argue about the implications.  I cannot mention RKBA people outside of a diary they're participating in?)

              Happy little moron, Lucky little man.
              I wish I was a moron, MY GOD, Perhaps I am!
              —Spike Milligan

              by polecat on Fri Sep 06, 2013 at 02:24:59 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  By individual name? No, not if you're gratituously (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                CenPhx, PhilJD

                slamming them.

                What's the point of taking shots at third-party community members? How does that prove you're correct on an issue or policy?

                By group, I think that's different.  Although, it's dangerous, Dee Oliver is a member of RKBA, for example. So you best tread carefully. Broad brushes paint quickly, but they aren't effective tools for most artwork.

                And hey, if it's any solace, I'll defend your honor if you're not there to defend yourself. I've defended people I virtually always disagree with.

                It's the principle.

                Hamden could have made the exact same point without slamming Ray. I know he could have. He's an articulate guy. His point would have been better if he had not gone there. But he did. So calling him on it was the right call.

                © grover


                So if you get hit by a bus tonight, would you be satisfied with how you spent today, your last day on earth? Live like tomorrow is never guaranteed, because it's not. -- Me.

                by grover on Fri Sep 06, 2013 at 03:26:19 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  The alternative would be hijacking Ray in (0+ / 0-)

                  His own diary.  is that better?

                  Happy little moron, Lucky little man.
                  I wish I was a moron, MY GOD, Perhaps I am!
                  —Spike Milligan

                  by polecat on Fri Sep 06, 2013 at 04:20:10 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  The alternative? (3+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    grover, CenPhx, dclawyer06

                    You assume that he needs hijacked AT ALL.

                    Let's put aside the sheer arrogant presumptuousness of this statement, and then remember that "attacking another diarist" in a diary that is not theirs (whether they're a commenter only, or they're not around at all), that this is very much like "dragging pie fights from diary to diary".

                    That gives admin a frowny face. Is it exactly the same thing? No. But it's a perfectly reasonable argument to make that it is quite similar.

                    Some of you have a beef with Ray's diaries, and you've been dragging it around to other diaries. Diaries that are not his. Diaries that allege to bring him up as a subject that he is not a subject, nor are the diaries his. Diaries where he's not even actively commenting that aren't his. And that's bullshit. If you have that big of a beef with whatever he writes, then take it to admin.

                    If you're not willing to do that, then kindly accept your own cowardice regarding same and leave the rest of the community out of it.

                    This all started with "what the Republicans did to language".

                    by lunachickie on Fri Sep 06, 2013 at 04:36:11 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  ^^^. What she said. (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      CenPhx

                      © grover


                      So if you get hit by a bus tonight, would you be satisfied with how you spent today, your last day on earth? Live like tomorrow is never guaranteed, because it's not. -- Me.

                      by grover on Fri Sep 06, 2013 at 05:26:32 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                    •  I did no such thing. As you well know. (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      CenPhx

                      But my point is it allowed to confront someone on their body of (for lack of a more appropriate word) work?

                      If so, where/when?

                      Happy little moron, Lucky little man.
                      I wish I was a moron, MY GOD, Perhaps I am!
                      —Spike Milligan

                      by polecat on Sat Sep 07, 2013 at 06:41:11 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

        •  no, I'm not here, btw. (0+ / 0-)

          Happy little moron, Lucky little man.
          I wish I was a moron, MY GOD, Perhaps I am!
          —Spike Milligan

          by polecat on Fri Sep 06, 2013 at 02:02:09 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Thanks Grover. Talking behind people's backs (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          grover, CenPhx

          is no better here than in meat world. It always sucks.

          When you triangulate everything, you can't even roll downhill...

          by PhilJD on Fri Sep 06, 2013 at 02:12:53 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Phil, you probably didn't notice, but I'm a bit (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            PhilJD, CenPhx, Oke

            sorry to see that we seem to be at odds over the Syria situation and the contretemps about Ray Pensador, although we're usually allies.

            I tremendously appreciate the way you stood up for me during the The Nephew debacle.

            But please let me pick a nit: this diary and its thread really don't amount to talking behind anybody's back.  Pensador is in the thread.  He couldn't help but notice the diary.

            •  Well yes, this diary is all about him (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              PhilJD, grover

              But the one that I believe Phil is talking about is the one I linked to in my comment. That one wasn't about Ray at all.

              What I'm kind of surprised about is that no one has commented on the mental health insults being lobbed. Even if you loathe Ray, surely nobody thinks that's okay?

              The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie, deliberate, contrived, and dishonest, but the myth, persistent, persuasive and unrealistic. --John F. Kennedy

              by CenPhx on Fri Sep 06, 2013 at 06:52:20 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  I read that with interest and decided not to (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                CenPhx

                comment, as I'm sure many others decided as well.

                This is not cowardice.  I'm genuinely conflicted about how to respond.

                •  Sorry if I made it seem like you... (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  PhilJD

                  ...had some duty to respond. Since I posted that right to your comment, it certainly seemed like I was telling you that you needed to. Really, I just wondered if anybody really even considered it. You definitely don't have any responsibility to say anything about it.

                  The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie, deliberate, contrived, and dishonest, but the myth, persistent, persuasive and unrealistic. --John F. Kennedy

                  by CenPhx on Fri Sep 06, 2013 at 07:58:31 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

            •  See CenPhx's comment below yours, Tim. (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Timaeus

              S/he has it exactly right. I've made no comments about Ray Pensador, by the way, other to maintain my long-held dislike for talking about other Kossacks when they aren't around to defend themselves. That goes for anyone.

              And no worries; I've been disagreed with before and lived to tell the tale!

              When you triangulate everything, you can't even roll downhill...

              by PhilJD on Fri Sep 06, 2013 at 07:07:00 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

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